# How is Harlan Ellison regarded as a writer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 2, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686 "2009-04-02T05:03:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Satchmo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/satchmo/32/4223_2.png) [@Satchmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satchmo)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/41 "2009-04-03T18:45:52Z")
One theme Ellison shares with the late Douglas Adams and the very current Neil Gaiman, what happens when Gods, (and gods), who are immortal and are sustained by the strength of people’s belief in them, when their following dwindles down to nothing. Each has a different take and they’re all interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/42 "2009-04-03T19:50:22Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > A common criticism is that the climactic scene was unshootable as Ellison wrote it. (I agree, but it’s been a long time since I read the script.) I understand some other changes were made because the episode would have run way over budget if they’d tried to shoot them. The original script also called, IIRC, for one of the crew members to be a drug addict. This was Unforgivable, crew members were not allowed to have common human problems. It’s been a long, long time since I read the script, but I thought that having a seriously flawed crew member was good storytelling. I hate writers who won’t allow their characters to be less than optimum. Give me an alcoholic character, or one who has some other flaw, any day of the week. Give me a story with problems that are not perfectly solved at the end, but which do have a conclusion. I prefer Heinlein’s original ending of _Podkayne of Mars_, even though I loved Poddy. Yes, dammit, I want some reality in my SF, and in my fantasy, and in my mysteries, and in my mundane fiction. And thanks, **Exapno Mapcase**. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/43 "2009-04-03T19:50:24Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Science fiction is one of the last fields in which writers can still make their reputations through short stories. Nathan Englander, a Judaic Magical Realist (and possibly the only one these days), made his reputation with a book of short stories. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/44 "2009-04-03T20:15:34Z")
**Exapno Mapcase** said: > [@](#): > > Science Fiction is not about spaceships. > _Science Fiction is not about spaceships._ > Science Fiction is not about spaceships. > **Science Fiction is not about spaceships.** > Science Fiction is not about spaceships. Is this aimed at me? Go take a tranquilizer. Have a good nap. Listen to some music and pet a puppy. Seriously, way overboard. I thoroughly understand Science Fiction covers a much broader range than just “space ships”. Not my point at all. My point is that I read _Angry Candy_, which is a collection of short stories published in 1988. I read it because I was familiar with his name (especially from Star Trek), and because it was recommended by a guy I knew - highly recommended. I figured I should read some Ellison. I don’t really remember much of anything from the book. Oddly, the title _I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream_ seems familiar, but it does not seem to be in that collection. All I remember is some surrealist vision of some guy without a mouth, and mouth floating around on its own. Maybe that was artwork from the book cover, for all I remember. What I can say is that I was not impressed, and it did not make a strong enough impression for me to remember any of the stories. Just a kind of negative feel overall. I think maybe from the dark tone. He may be a good writer. He may be a great writer. He may be the best writer who ever walked the face of the Earth. But I didn’t get that. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/45 "2009-04-03T21:55:55Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Is this aimed at me? There have been a large number of posters in this thread who said that Ellison does not write science fiction. You’re all wrong. Don’t like that? You’re still wrong. If you say things that are that wrong here of all places, expect to get called on it. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/46 "2009-04-03T22:03:22Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > There have been a large number of posters in this thread who said that Ellison does not write science fiction. You’re all wrong. Don’t like that? You’re still wrong. If you say things that are that wrong here of all places, expect to get called on it. Doesn’t Ellison himself get very, very pissy if you use the words “science fiction” to apply to him? I thought he preferred the term “speculative fiction.” ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/47 "2009-04-03T22:25:58Z")
Is it possible to get a copy of the original script for **City on the Edge of Forever**? You guys have got me curious, now. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/48 "2009-04-03T22:26:31Z")
IIRC, Ellison prefers to be in a category all his own, and would like for book shops to set up a shelf or section consisting solely of his writings and anthologies. I believe he wrote as much in one of his intros. However, we all know that’s not going to happen. I think that even Ellison knows it’s not gonna happen. He might get pissed off about some of his stories being called science fiction, but for many of his works, SF/science fiction/fantasy is the best category to file them under. Ellison is notorious for getting very, very pissy about a lot of things. BTW, I’ve never known **Exapno Mapcase** to be wrong about science fiction. Ever. If I say something about SF, and s/he (sorry, don’t know the gender) says something different, believe him or her over me. I can’t remember himrher being wrong about other things, either, but I know that I’ve stated something about SF, been contradicted by **Exapno Mapcase** , looked it up, and found that I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/49 "2009-04-03T22:29:14Z")
Harlan has won a bunch of SF awards, so I suppose he’s well regarded by much of the SF community. Personally I find his award winning stuff silly showboating. Much more flash than substance. “A Boy and His Dog” is very good. His non-fiction essays are thoroughly entertaining. The early non-fiction is so-so. I think he made up much of his “gang” journal, but have no evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/50 "2009-04-03T22:34:12Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Is it possible to get a copy of the original script for **City on the Edge of Forever**? You guys have got me curious, now. Yes, yes it is. And I think that it’s worth reading. [The City on the Edge of Forever: The Original Teleplay that Became the Classic Star Trek Episode: Ellison, Harlan: 9781565049642: Amazon.com: Books](http://www.amazon.com/City-Edge-Forever-Original-Teleplay/dp/1565049640) ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/51 "2009-04-03T22:47:12Z")
Usually I divide writers into two groups, which I call Storytellers and Authors. Stephen King is a fine storyteller, when he makes the effort, for instance. His primary goal is to make money from writing, and maybe to tell a story or two. I think that he’s succeeded in his goals. I don’t think that he’ll be taught in English/Language Arts/Literature a hundred years from now, though I could be wrong. James Joyce is an Author, who wanted to be taken seriously, and he is well regarded by the literary community. Ellison also wants to be regarded as an Author, and most people in the SF/fantasy community will say that he’s made a great impact upon the SF/fantasy genre. I’ve read a great many of his stories and essays. I liked some, loved some, didn’t care for others. However, I think that he’s very good at his craft. He’s best at being an Angry Man and Social Critic, though. A few writers manage to be both Storytellers and Authors. These are rare, and I treasure them. If they’re alive, I will buy their books new, rather than buy them used or borrow library copies. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/52 "2009-04-03T22:56:05Z")
Ellison is well considered as a writer, and is widely regarded as a dick. I love much of his work and don’t love a bunch more, but that’s what you get when you are that prolific. He has written some of my favorite short stories ever though and “Repent Harlequin…” is a true classic. I actually have met him on several occasions (he was a client at an art gallery I used to work for) and he was nothing but nice to me. I didn’t know he was who he was when he first started buying from us. He was collecting Disney Figurines, which I found to be odd and somewhat sweet. Then he gave the gallery owner a signed copy of one of his books as a christmas gift. I don’t remember which one anymore, it had Jefty is Five in it. And I freaked out a bit, the owner had no idea why he thought giving a gift of a book he had written was a big deal. She hadn’t ever heard of him as anything other than as a good client. He was a gruff, crotchety old man, but a nice one. And it leads me to believe that his persona is largely just that, a persona. It gets him attention and I think he likes that, but I think 90% of it is manufactured for effect. The thing that is probably most important to take away from the above story though, is that he gave someone who didn’t know who he was a signed copy of one of his books as a christmas gift. So it isn’t 100% manufactured. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/53 "2009-04-03T22:57:42Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Yes, yes it is. And I think that it’s worth reading. [The City on the Edge of Forever: The Original Teleplay that Became the Classic Star Trek Episode: Ellison, Harlan: 9781565049642: Amazon.com: Books](http://www.amazon.com/City-Edge-Forever-Original-Teleplay/dp/1565049640) OK, I ordered it. Will I get sued for buying it used? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/54 "2009-04-04T00:12:16Z")
I’ve had several encounters with Harlan over the years, and he has proven to be nothing less than charming and delightful each time. He has given me more than a few signed books for my help at a reading, several autographs in my First Editions, and many funny stories. He also publicly blew me out of the saddle when I tried to get cute during a Q&A session, demonstrating that plowboys shouldn’t draw on hired guns. He has written the single scariest story ever (“Flopsweat”), one of the most disturbing (“Croatoan”), and one of the funniest (“How’s the Night Life On Cissalda?”). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/55 "2009-04-04T00:30:15Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Doesn’t Ellison himself get very, very pissy if you use the words “science fiction” to apply to him? I thought he preferred the term “speculative fiction.” A lot of us in the field have been fighting the battle over what terms should be applied to the field and its writers for more than four decades. The best answer, as always, is,“it depends.” It depends on who is asking the question, and what the agenda is behind the question, and when the question was asked, and what alternative answers might fit the occasion. Today, with “sci-fi” growing as the default term, and the image of the field defined mostly by comic books and movies and comicbook movies, the use of “speculative fiction” is mostly a lost cause. Just trying to keep some measure of dignity by the use of the term “science fiction” rather than “sci-fi” is a losing battle. Forty years ago, when Dangerous Visions represented something close to dangerous in a field lorded over by right-wing haters of literature, literary fiction, and liberals, it was well worth the fight to proclaim oneself a speculative fiction writer rather than a science fiction writer (even if the term "speculative fiction was likely coined, or at least popularized, by Robert Heinlein, then busy putting up an electrified fence to fend off the hippies). Those days are long gone. I don’t know exactly what answer Harlan would give today. I expect that his answer would change from day to day or with the questioner. The best answer I can give is that the field is science fiction very much like a certain style of music is rock. Were all the songs The Beatles rock songs? Obviously not. Was the music of The Beatles as a whole rock music? Absolutely. If you want to discuss fine points or particulars, then have that discussion and I’ll happily join in. But it’s just silly to say that a Grand Master of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, a man who has won seven Hugo Awards for short fiction, is not a science fiction writer. He is. He may also be more than that, but again that’s a different discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/56 "2009-04-04T00:52:57Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Usually I divide writers into two groups, which I call Storytellers and Authors. Stephen King is a fine storyteller, when he makes the effort, for instance. His primary goal is to make money from writing, and maybe to tell a story or two. I think that he’s succeeded in his goals. I don’t think that he’ll be taught in English/Language Arts/Literature a hundred years from now, though I could be wrong. James Joyce is an Author, who wanted to be taken seriously, and he is well regarded by the literary community. Ellison also wants to be regarded as an Author, and most people in the SF/fantasy community will say that he’s made a great impact upon the SF/fantasy genre. I’ve read a great many of his stories and essays. I liked some, loved some, didn’t care for others. However, I think that he’s very good at his craft. He’s best at being an Angry Man and Social Critic, though. > > A few writers manage to be both Storytellers and Authors. These are rare, and I treasure them. If they’re alive, I will buy their books new, rather than buy them used or borrow library copies. Somebody said, “Writers write. Authors get their names on things.” Let me check . . . apparently that was one H. Ellison. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Just\_Ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Ed)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/57 "2009-04-04T00:56:22Z")
Stephen King once wrote a preface to one of Ellison’s collections (I believe it was _Stalking the Nightmare_, but I could be wrong) wherein he describes Ellison as that item in the fridge that affects the taste of the milk. No, really - obviously King was better at putting it into words, but the concept is that Ellison’s writing - his style, his voice - affected King’s own writing in the sense that King wrote like Ellison right after reading Ellison (the analogy being that King is the milk in the fridge that picks up flavor from the surrounding items). Anyway. I bring that up because Ellison’s writing has affected me similarly, in that I have a very . . . _visceral_ reaction to his stories; I always feel very deeply the travails of his protagonists. That singular ability - establishing a connection with the reader and enabling the reader to empathize with the character - is the one thing I believe made me a fan of Ellison’s writing. You can say what you want about the man’s character, but his writing ability is beyond reproach. And I usually find his vitriol highly entertaining, whether or not I agree with whatever he’s ranting about. King also described Ellison as the one friend you would _want_ to have with you should you suffer a heart attack, as he would carry you bodily to the nearest Emergency Room if he had to, commandeering doctors along the way. So his loyalty to his friends has at least been documented in that sense. Oh, and as far as “sci-fi” goes, I sure wish it would. It’s bad enough the premier (?) cable channel for the form had to call itself that (prompting the new derogatory “skiffy” in the process), but it engendered the bastardized “SyFy”, which is several orders of magnitude worse. As a fan, I prefer SF, which can conveniently refer to speculative fiction as a whole or science fiction specifically, depending on context. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/58 "2009-04-04T01:30:50Z")
> [@Just\_Ed](#): > > Stephen King once wrote a preface to one of Ellison’s collections (I believe it was _Stalking the Nightmare_, but I could be wrong) You got the collection right. And though he is best known for the disturbing stories, he can do some perfectly delightful “light” pieces such as _“Djinn, No Chaser”_ and _“The Outpost Undiscovered by Tourists”_. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Just\_Ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Ed)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/59 "2009-04-04T01:44:17Z")
Thanks - and yes, good point - I find his lighter fare hilarious. PHUQUE! ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686/60 "2009-04-04T02:12:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, and as far as “sci-fi” goes, I sure wish it would. It’s bad enough the premier (?) cable channel for the form had to call itself that (prompting the new derogatory “skiffy” in the process), “Skiffy” isn’t new. I remember my grandfather using it, telling me that it was the correct pronunciation of “sci-fi”, and the difference between science fiction and sci-fi, which means that it was in use before 1988, and probably before 1978. Maybe only really hardcore fans used it that way, but it isn’t really that new. I am torn between outrage and sorrow at the Sci-Fi/Syfy channel. It could have been so great, and yet it is so awful, and it creates awfulness, and mundanes think that it IS science fiction. And what it did to Earthsea was an abomination unto any god you care to name. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-harlan-ellison-regarded-as-a-writer/491686.md?page=4)