# How is Israel's military so competent with such a low budget **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2025, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990 "2025-06-22T23:20:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/121 "2025-09-09T12:51:40Z")
Not to derail the thread, but I think you may be overestimating many European militaries today. Some have become shockingly weak. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/122 "2025-09-09T16:48:09Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Israel has **NEVER** faced a European-level opp-force. Yeah but as I mentioned earlier, Israel’s air force is on par with a lot of western nation’s air forces. Germany, France, the UK, etc. Air supremacy is a major part of Israel’s defense and offense strategy. Also Israeli special forces seem to be on par with western special forces. Israeli has more tanks than almost all western nations. A quick online search says Israel has over 2000 tanks, while nations like Germany, the UK or France only have about 300. What Israel lacks is manpower due to their small population. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/123 "2025-09-09T17:49:03Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Yeah but as I mentioned earlier, Israel’s air force is on par with a lot of western nation’s air forces. Are they? Again, the weakest virtues are the untested ones. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/124 "2025-09-09T19:58:02Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Are they? > > Again, the weakest virtues are the untested ones. Yes. They have about 200 F-16s, about 45 F-35s, plus other models like the F-15s. That is far more jets than virtually every other western nation. Plus Israel has repeatedly shown them in combat to be effective against Iranian and Syrian air defenses. Iranian air defenses are Russian made and Israel got around them pretty easily. Israel probably has the world’s second best air force. Israel also has far more real world experience with their air force than virtually any other western nation except the US. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/125 "2025-09-09T20:33:19Z")
You think “russian made” is impresive. HOW PRECIOUS! {SNERK} ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/126 "2025-09-09T20:54:27Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > You think “russian made” is impresive. It depends on _what_ is Russian-made. (Modern) Russian tanks? Absolute trash. Russian air defenses? Actually fairly advanced. > **[Russian Air and Missile Defense | Missile Threat](https://missilethreat.csis.org/system_tax/russian-air-defense/)** > > During the Cold War, the Soviet Union invested heavily in its air defense systems. As a result, Russia now possesses some of the most advanced air and missile defense systems in the world. Russian air defense systems are also highly proliferated and... > [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > HOW PRECIOUS! > > {SNERK} Snark works better when you’re actually the better informed one. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/127 "2025-09-09T21:00:44Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Again, the weakest virtues are the untested ones. Untested? Israel’s air force is arguably the _most_–battle-tested air force in the world, at least on a per capita basis. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/128 "2025-09-09T21:18:58Z")
I believe he meant against a first-rate military power. I wouldn’t expect _anyone_ to win against the USA, but maybe against non-USA NATO? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/129 "2025-09-09T21:21:00Z")
Israel has about 2000+ world class tanks, while nations like France, the UK and Germany have about 200-300 each. Israel has more jets and better jets than nations like France, the UK or Germany. Israel also has far more experience than these nations at warfare and intelligence. Their special forces are also on par with and probably better than the special forces units in Europe due to more experience. The only real drawback Israel has is its small population. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/130 "2025-09-09T21:47:39Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Also Israeli special forces seem to be on par with western special forces. Israeli has more tanks than almost all western nations. A quick online search says Israel has over 2000 tanks, while nations like Germany, the UK or France only have about 300. I’m not disputing Israeli tank forces (I have family among them!) but… A strong tank force has to do more with the quality of the opposing forces, than their own superiority (Air Force is a different thing entirely). If your opponents are ground troops, without modern anti-tank capacity in volume, you can use tanks to crush poorly trained and poorly equipped mob-infantry, such as @Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor mentions. Against a peer power, tanks are very expensive (!) and would likely be a bad investment in the quantity the IDF can field. So as always, it’s a matter of the IDF priorities in dealing with their substantial local threats, which is not the same as the best options for projecting force on the international level. Which isn’t their JOB. So most of the comparisons are apples to oranges, though the Air Force again is an exception where the high level of practical experience is going to give the IDF advantages over NATO peers in many cases. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/131 "2025-09-09T21:50:32Z")
**Moderating:** > [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > You think “russian made” is impresive. > > HOW PRECIOUS! > > {SNERK} This is attacking the poster, not the post. You can make the point without the direct attack. No warning this time, but do not do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/132 "2025-09-09T21:58:05Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Israel has more jets and better jets than nations like France, the UK or Germany. I think this is overly generous. From Wikipedia: Israel - 66 F-15, 174 F-16, 45 F-35 France - 108 Rafale, 85 Mirage UK - 102 Eurofighter Typhoon, 39 F-35B Luftwaffe - 85 Tornado, 141 Typhoon (F-35’s on order) Individually the nations have somewhat fewer fighters than Israel, but those air forces would never be fighting alone. 280 vs 193, 141, and 226 isn’t notable numerical superiority, and of course there are several other European NATO air forces, smaller but with comparable aircraft including well over 100 operational F-35 and a bunch more Typhoons. Better? Rafale and Typhoon are significantly more modern airframes than F-15 or F-16, though I’d imagine that Israel’s are heavily modernized so probably nearly on par, and the Mirage isn’t much older. The German Tornado’s are a little long in the tooth, having been introduced 1 year after F-16 and 3 years after F-15, and are on their way out for F-35s. I’d also be somewhat surprised if Israel’s F-35’s are better than the UK’s (or those operated by Denmark, the Netherlands, Italy, or Norway). Experience is obviously not on par, but it’s not like these air forces aren’t getting their pilots enough flight hours to stay on top of their training. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/133 "2025-09-09T22:29:00Z")
You may be right, I may be underestimating the Typhoon and the Rafale. However nations like the UK, Germany and France have a GDP of 3-5 trillion in nominal terms. Israel is closer to 600 billion. Israel’s economy is comparable to Ireland, Belgium or Austria, but their air force is on par with non-US G-7 economies. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/134 "2025-09-10T13:00:21Z")
But NOT against a First-World well-trained force. No AF in the Middle East rises above the level of “mopes in planes”. The Israeli Air force is questionable in air-to-air. And just beating mopes is like a Junior High School football team beating a bunch of drunks from a bar, who have never played as a team, & keep throwing up on each other. _It don’t make those kids the Superbowl champs._ ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/135 "2025-09-10T13:03:17Z")
Yet results say otherwise. Ukraine has shown us that the Russian military is all bluff, no B@lls. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/136 "2025-09-10T13:11:12Z")
First of all, I don’t know why you are so eager to beat some sort of anti-IDF drum. I mean, I’m not even particularly a fan of Israel myself, and I’m puzzled. Do you have some sort of axe to grind? Secondly, there’s no way to test this in real life but you got to bear in mind that plenty of NATO air forces have never tasted any meaningful amount of air-to-air combat in many years. The IAF has been regularly doing combat and more combat in real life, every single year. In terms of sheer experience and battle readiness, I’d expect the IAF to have the upper hand against many NATO air forces (other than the USA.) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/137 "2025-09-10T13:13:20Z")
I’m trying to bust a myth. Israel is the champ, but _only_ the **Local** Champ. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/138 "2025-09-10T13:21:46Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Ukraine has shown us that the Russian military is all bluff, no B@lls. That’s why Ukraine was able to bomb Moscow with impunity, right? 🙄 The Russian military is terribly led and poorly equipped. Thanks to decades of corruption, much of their equipment was in terrible shape. And many of the expensive new projects, like the T-14, appear to mostly be ways for corrupt individuals to extract wealth from the country. That doesn’t mean the S-400 and other Russian Anti-Air platforms are worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/139 "2025-09-10T13:25:49Z")
It was worthless in the Soviet Era, too. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990/140 "2025-09-10T14:46:10Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > I’m trying to bust a myth. > > Israel is the champ, but _only_ the **Local** Champ. Yes, Israel is a local superpower. Thats why this thread was created. Their military budget is normally around 25 billion a year. Right now its closer to 50 billion a year due to the war. Despite their small military budget they are doing quite well for themselves. Western nations with comparable GDPs like Belgium aren’t known for their world class special forces, air forces, or having thousands of tanks they designed themselves. Are arab militaries full of corruption and incompetence? Yes. But Israel has beaten multiple arab military alliances in 1948, 1967 and 1973 when Israel had far less financial capital and far less advanced military equipment too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-israels-military-so-competent-with-such-a-low-budget/1019990.md?page=8)