# How is it hurting me, Jayjay? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 24, 2006, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492 "2006-12-24T23:33:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/121 "2006-12-26T02:18:50Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Not a popularity poll. I’m simply saying that I have never seen **Polycarp** treat anyone the way **pseudotriton ruber ruber** has, nor have I ever seen him act like such an immature, insecure little brat. And if **Polycarp** is disturbing when it comes to religion, you’ve been extremely sheltered. [/QUOTE] Well I can agree strongly with the first point. \*\*PRR \*\* has been very offensive about religion lately. I just thought the “I have met part” was a little besides the point. As to the second point, let me just say I find logical base defense of the non-logical to be more difficult to take than faith based ones. I cannot argue against faith, I have none, but that does not mean I am right. \*\*Poly’s \*\* logic and historical viewpoint is interesting, but inherently wrong as God cannot be proved and history provides too much information for either side of the debate. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/122 "2006-12-26T02:37:10Z")
[QUOTE=mstay] Currently the Islamic fundies are winning the terror count on account of no opponent. But that is another problem – it’s very easy to square terrorism and violence with both the Bible and the Qur’an. Just be **really** thankful you weren’t born a woman in the Middle East. [/QUOTE] Good chop job, there. Too bad it doesn’t address what I was commenting on; to wit, your comment that the current “war” is against Islamic Fundamentalism. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/123 "2006-12-26T03:14:34Z")
> [@](#): > > **PRR** : Somehow, I don’t see a southern judge applying hate crime laws to the protection of the right to be an atheist. I’m imagining more like, “Yeah, you said you were an atheist, you gotten beaten to within a inch of your life, you got a problem wth that? Next case!” > [@](#): > > **PRR** : Fighting ignorance of any kind is a virtue in itself. You say that you don’t see a Southern judge applying laws to protect an atheist. Do you have a cite for any Southern judge who has threatened to beat an atheist for her or his beliefs or non-beliefs as you have described? And I would be curious about how many cases there have been in the last 35 years where a Southern judge has failed to protect an atheist’s right not to believe. Do you have any information on this at all? You do know that most Southern cities are liberal, don’t you? Thank you for the opportunity to be a virtuous woman. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/124 "2006-12-26T03:34:47Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] You say that you don’t see a Southern judge applying laws to protect an atheist. Do you have a cite for any Southern judge who has threatened to beat an atheist for her or his beliefs or non-beliefs as you have described? And I would be curious about how many cases there have been in the last 35 years where a Southern judge has failed to protect an atheist’s right not to believe. Do you have any information on this at all? You do know that most Southern cities are liberal, don’t you? Thank you for the opportunity to be a virtuous woman. [/QUOTE] You couldn’t be a virtuous woman if we turned back time and raised you in the Cenozoic Era (which would be a fabulous idea, btw. Think about it.) It hardly matters what I think about Southern cities’ liberality, or lack thereof. I’ve had the privilege of reading the post that you are commenting on, wherein the poster stated quite clearly that he was writing about “what it’s like to grow up in an ultraconservative rural area in a red state.” Now the words “ultraconservative” and “rural” have a special meaning to me, a meaning that is some strange ways contrary to that of “liberal” and “city.” IOW, it is far more rewarding getting down in the gutter and licking the cobblestones than engaging in discourse with you, and I hope I’ll remember that the next time I consider responding to one of your inane posts. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/125 "2006-12-26T03:38:52Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] IOW, it is far more rewarding getting down in the gutter and licking the cobblestones than engaging in discourse with you, and I hope I’ll remember that the next time I consider responding to one of your inane posts. [/QUOTE] You burn those bridges, you shining diamond! Are you determined to play Stella Johnson all the way to its inevitable and really ugly conclusion, or are you just feeling undermedicated tonight? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/126 "2006-12-26T05:11:58Z")
Wow, and I thought the fundamentalist paranoia and belief that they are persecuted for their faith was way wierd. Onward Atheist Soldiers, Marching without God! I must live on a different planet. We haven’t burned anyone at the stake in years! Tris ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/127 "2006-12-26T07:44:24Z")
> [@](#): > > **PRR** : IOW, it is far more rewarding getting down in the gutter and licking the cobblestones than engaging in discourse with you, and I hope I’ll remember that the next time I consider responding to one of your inane posts. I’m sure that you would indeed prefer that. You couldn’t come up with specific information about such a court case. I don’t think I’ve ever seen another poster make so many claims without being able to provide documentation. What was it you were saying about those who interrupt honest discourse? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/128 "2006-12-26T07:55:34Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Pretty good “poisoning the well” fallacy. No, I don’t need to “arrogantly preach” to anyone, but thanks for giving me the opportunity to defend arrogance. Or preaching. :rolleyes: [/quote] If you’re not actually trying to preach to believers, sorry about that. I read the other posts that said that you were going for conversions. I’ll keep the “arrogant”, though. > [@](#): > > What I am doing, as if you care, is asking a simple (and impossible) question of the SD itself on its basic mission: Why is religion, specifically western religion, and more specifically Xianity, given a free pass on this website? By “free pass,” I’m just trying to point out the obvious: that other sects, systems of belief, etc. are held to a fairly high standard of proof, and Xianity is not. See post #108, by **Polycarp**. It’s not exactly clear, but I think his point was that religious belief, in itself, cannot be proved or disproved. If you claim that the Earth was made in six days and humans lived along with dinosaurs, that’s a claim that can be scientifically tested (the “humans with dinosaurs” thesis, at least, I’m not quite as sure of the “made in six days” part). But if you claim that a god exists, or no god exists, well, since gods are independent of the material world, your claim is essentially unprovable (and undisprovable). But your own philosophical viewpoint seems to be that everything can be known through the senses – I’m not certain what the definition of Materialism is exactly, so Polycarp or anyone else, if you want to correct this, feel free – so since the existence of a god cannot be proved by science, you consider belief in God to be ridiculous. I actually happen to disagree with this. I believe the existence or inexistence of a god to be impossible to determine either way, and I consider that lack of any belief in a god (as opposed to both active disbelief and active belief) to be the “default” position. This is why I’m an agnostic atheist. But frankly I don’t mind the fact that some people actively believe, or actively disbelieve. They don’t have the same life experience as I do. I just wish they’d realise that their beliefs are just that, not facts. > [@](#): > > I’m an admirer of that standard of proof, and I love the idea of a website that asks people for evidence for claims, and busts their chops (in a pleasant but persistent manner, which is what I’m shooting for here–not always succeeding, but I am a flawed vessal) about assuming the burden of proof, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, etc. My question is: Why does Xianity get held to a less rigorous standard here? In this thread and a few others, people seem to be comparing the treatment of Christianity and Scientology on this board. Well, there’s of course the fact that Scientology is a much younger religion than Christianity, and one whose origins don’t seem especially noble, what with the rumour that Hubbard said, prior to founding Scientology, that creating a religion was a sure-fire way to make money. (Is there any proof of that, actually?) Christianity, on the other hand, is older and its origins are therefore more shrouded in mystery. Plus, it’s a greater part of Western culture than Scientology is. But I think that the main reason is what I said earlier in this post. Scientology makes some claims that are in the domain of science. I think Scientologists spurn modern psychiatric medicine for unproven treatments, for example. The anti-scientific claims made by some Christians (creationism, to name one) are also often attacked here. If Scientologists make some claims that are totally outside of the domain of science, I have no problem believing that some posters here will mock them, while they might not mock claims made by Christians. But I must say that I personally do not care about what Scientologists claim, as long as it does not go against science, and I believe many other posters feel the same. > [@](#): > > I don’t think that’s an arrogant question at all, but YMMV. I think it’s a fairly reasonable question, as these things go, although the answer that suggests itself to me may not be acceptable to you, and you might therefore feel the urge to invent some personal attacks, send me some vicious e-mail, express disappointment in my character or integrity, etc. I wish you wouldn’t, but you are also flawed vessals. It’s certainly wrong that posters or lurkers here are sending you hate mail. But I’m willing to bet that **Polycarp** , **Siege** , **tomndebb** and the others aren’t the ones who are doing this. So what’s the problem with them? Why mention it at all? > [@](#): > > If someone started an “Ask the Baal Worshipper” thread (I’m surprised someone hasn’t), I somehow doubt that **Tom** would declare that poor deluded slob to be exempt from actually, you know, answering any questions about Baal-worship, as he’s done with the OP in the “Ask the Mormon” thread. tomndebb has claimed that he wants the “LDS theology” thread to remain about LDS theology, while the other thread can contain the claims that Joe Smith was delusional or whatever it does contain (haven’t checked them). I don’t see what’s wrong about this. Do you? > [@](#): > > Instead, I get hate mail. Speaking of which, is there some kind of rule around here that Dopers are prohibited from sending each other anonymous hate mail via the e-mail account listed in the profile? If not there really ought to be. Hate mail sucks. And if there is such a rule, are atheists eligible to file a complaint? I don’t know if there is an actual rule preventing posters here from sending hate mail to other posters. Mods, is there actually one? I’m reminded of [thread=370735]this thread[/thread], but in this case the offending poster – who, as far as I know, wasn’t warned – hadn’t actually sent what could be construed as “hate mail”. The best thing I can suggest to you would be to forward the e-mails to an administrator, and see what can be done. I believe someone must be registered to be able to check your e-mail address, so it might be possible to match the return address to someone. Then again, maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/129 "2006-12-26T08:18:30Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Bull and shit. I have NEVER seen say, **Polycarp** or **Tomndebb** , or any of the many many religious people I’ve known all of my life, ever express hatred towards atheists. [/QUOTE] Which is why I said “The religious, **as a group** ” in the very post you quoted. Not that I believe that the religious people you know are as sweetness and light as you claim. [QUOTE=tomndebb] It is possible that **Der Trihs** has gotten some unwanted attention from the staff because of his vehemence (although I do not recall that happening) \< snip \> [/QUOTE] FYI, I can’t recall anything, either. [QUOTE=Clothahump] That’s not just Christianity. That’s organized religion of any flavor. [/QUOTE] Yes, but it’s mostly Christianity that actually matters in the US. [QUOTE=Polycarp] You just don’t get it, do you, **prr**. You’re insisting that your personal metaphysics (the Materialist school of thought) must be imposed on everyone else, or else we are engaged in promoting ignorance. [/quote] “Imposed” ? No, I’m saying that it’s right, and if you believe otherwise, you are wrong. That isn’t imposing anything, and I don’t see where **pseudotriton ruber ruber** is talking about _imposing_ anything. Holding a strong opinion is not imposing, nor is calling those you disagree with names. Besides, all the evidence is for materialism, and claiming that mystical/religious beliefs are anything better than wild guesses _is_ an example of ignorance or irrationality, or simple lying. [QUOTE=Polycarp] That is exactly what the fundamentalists, of either Christianity or Islam, are doing. Except that they are trying to do it by law, or by violence. Neither of which you have offered. Yet. [/quote] Which is _why_ it is _not_ the same thing, or even close. There’s also the little deal that all the evidence suggests that they are wrong and the unbelievers are right; that’s a _tiny_ difference. [QUOTE=Triskadecamus] Wow, and I thought the fundamentalist paranoia and belief that they are persecuted for their faith was way wierd. Onward Atheist Soldiers, Marching without God! [/quote] :rolleyes: Yes, because the claims of persecution by a massively numerous and extremely powerful group to being persecuted victims is _just as plausible_ as similar claims by a _massively outnumbered_ group that that is [the least trusted group in America.](http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2006/03/24/67686) [QUOTE=Triskadecamus] I must live on a different planet. We haven’t burned anyone at the stake in years! [/QUOTE] No, gunfire and beatings are more popular these days. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/130 "2006-12-26T08:25:01Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] What part are you now claiming to have been lying about, **Miller**? You clearly distinguish between insults to Scientologists and Catholics, not because of any distinction between the two creeds but simply because your mother is a Catholic, and you defend her honor vigorously [Groucho: "which is more than she ever did’] but couldn’t care less about insults to Scientologists, whom you dont know personally. If that’s not following one set of rules for insults allowed to Scientologists as a creed and a whole other standard for those allowed to Catholics, I dont know what is. Your own personal agenda, and not any important principle, sits behind the ways you allow religion to be discussed, and I believe your position is in fact the default position for the Straight Dope in general. Thanks again for your help in making my point clear, even if you lack several important clues as to what’s being discussed here. Take it from me, you’ve been a big help to me. [/QUOTE] Hmm. Maybe I should reconsider the “stupid” option after all. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/131 "2006-12-26T14:48:27Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Over yonder, at the top of the second page of the “Why was Ammonius Saccus banned?” thread, \*\*Jayjay \*\* pauses in the middle of his intemperate attack on me (and his resignation from the PRR fan club) to pose the question to me: “But how is it hurting you that Polycarp, Siege, tomndebb, etc., believe in a god and that his son was sent to incarnate in human form to redeem their souls? How is that hurting you, and why is it necessary to fight it?” This is a good question, one that I’ve asked myself. (Somewhere I asked if atheists aren’t being served by all these religious folks running off to waste hours of their day and years of their lives on pointless superstitious acts, in that this gives atheists relatively more hours and years in which to actually accomplish their goals here on earth.) But I do believe it is a positive virtue to fight it, and will begin to enumerate the ways. Other atheists, please feel free to join in. I’m expecting quite a pile-up: 1. Fighting ignorance of any kind is a virtue in itself. Even if I accomplish nothing for the believers on this website today, I’m helping to set a tone in which advocating atheism isn’t perceived as anything exceptional, and someday kids will grow up in a climate where people just assume that a random person may or may not believe in God, exactly as he chooses, instead of assuming that random person is a weirdo. 2. Christianity is a species of ignorance. It is no more and no less ignorant than belief in Zeus or Baal or worship of the sun. I believe we are all descended from sun-worshippers, and we are all better off for the eradication of the ignorant belief that a giant ball of flaming gas millions of miles away is a sentient being wishing good and ill on the human race. I think the descendents of Christians, and maybe even their children, will regard their beliefs in the same way, and the human race as a whole will be enlightened. 3. I believe much human effort goes into the maintenance of various Christian churches, which I would just as soon see torn to the ground, burnt to bits and the ashes distributed to the winds. But that’s just fantasizing–I’ll gladly settle for their doors being shut and the churches turned over to actual charitable work that will help people in need without yammering nonsense into their skulls. Hungry? Here, eat. Homeless? Come inside this nice safe building and sleep. 4. To say nothing of the education, maintenence, feeding etc. of ministers and priests who live off the people’s subsidy and tax-relief–these are obviously capable people who could easily turn their energies to more useful skills that would help society a damn sight better than wasting their days crafting ingeniously redundant sermons that pretty well accomplish nothing. You want an education? Go to school, for Chrissakes. Don’t listen to these saps blowing smoke up your buttcheeks. There. That’s four ways that Christianity hurts me. [/QUOTE] I am quoting your OP in full because, loon that I am, I managed to infer from it the concept that you wish religious belief abolished as a species of ignorance, because of course you are 100% correct in your own views, with whom no one should ever take exception. I note from a page-3 post of yours that either this was not your intent, or your bicycle is proceeding rapidly backwards. So what am I to construe your OP as meaning? Somehow, even the anencephalic among us have managed to grasp that you don’t like religion very much, without the aforementioned diatribe. As regards it, point by point: 1. This is something I would hope to see sped along. However, your other posts on the subject indicate that your vaunted tolerance is not really there – what you want is for atheists not to be condemned, granted, but that believers in any faith should take their place, as “promoting ignorance.” 2. There’s been a great deal of debunking of classical Diffusionism in cultural anthropology. The sun is among a number of deified objects, but hardly universal. As for Christianity, its billion-plus believers make it very difficult to generalize about. T.S. Eliot, Paul Tillich, a superstitious pseudo-Catholic peasant from a third-world nation, and the snake-handlers all fall within that broad category. 3. You might be very surprised at the charitable work that _actual Christian churches_ do – not Westboro Baptist or Jerry Falwell’s, to be sure, but the typical Methodist, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Catholic parish’s outreach efforts to provide help. 4. I take it you don’t have a clue what clergypeople do. Of course, showing up for class a couple of times a day three days a week, to yammer on about whatever enters your mind, you wouldn’t. And if I’ve misrepresented your duties as a teacher and department head (presuming you are actually what you claim), you may be able to take my point. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/132 "2006-12-26T15:29:38Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] I am quoting your OP in full because, loon that I am, I managed to infer from it the concept that you wish religious belief abolished as a species of ignorance, because of course you are 100% correct in your own views, with whom no one should ever take exception. I note from a page-3 post of yours that either this was not your intent, or your bicycle is proceeding rapidly backwards. So what am I to construe your OP as meaning? Somehow, even the anencephalic among us have managed to grasp that you don’t like religion very much, without the aforementioned diatribe. As regards it, point by point: 1. This is something I would hope to see sped along. However, your other posts on the subject indicate that your vaunted tolerance is not really there – what you want is for atheists not to be condemned, granted, but that believers in any faith should take their place, as “promoting ignorance.” 2. There’s been a great deal of debunking of classical Diffusionism in cultural anthropology. The sun is among a number of deified objects, but hardly universal. As for Christianity, its billion-plus believers make it very difficult to generalize about. T.S. Eliot, Paul Tillich, a superstitious pseudo-Catholic peasant from a third-world nation, and the snake-handlers all fall within that broad category. 3. You might be very surprised at the charitable work that _actual Christian churches_ do – not Westboro Baptist or Jerry Falwell’s, to be sure, but the typical Methodist, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Catholic parish’s outreach efforts to provide help. 4. I take it you don’t have a clue what clergypeople do. Of course, showing up for class a couple of times a day three days a week, to yammer on about whatever enters your mind, you wouldn’t. And if I’ve misrepresented your duties as a teacher and department head (presuming you are actually what you claim), you may be able to take my point. [/QUOTE] I am quoting your post in full because I don’t have a clue what you’re about half of the time, and need frequent reminders. I’m 100% correct only in saying that these are my opinions–everything else is open to discussion. I don’t want religion abolished as much as I believe that’s the direction humanity is moving in (except when I think otherwise, which makes dark days for me, visions of 1984, The Handmaid’s Tale kind of visions.) If I didn’t want people to take exception to my views, I wouldn’t post them on a messageboard. You’re free to disagree as you choose–I just wish you’d be more honest and more clear in your responses. 1. I do think that, when atheists are less despised in general, society will be less ignorant and less tied up in knots over religion. I’m perfectly okay with people holding any beliefs they choose, the more enlightened the better, but I recognize that my views on what is enlightened are probably not yours. The marketplace of free ideas should help straighten this conflict out, but to have one we need a level field on which we discuss our ideas. The SD is a little skewed to your advantage at this point IMO. 2)The sun was a convenient, and moderately accurate, example of a primitive object of worship. If you’d care to instruct me in anthropology, feel free to open a thread and I’ll read it eagerly. 1. I wouldn’t say “very surprised” but I’d estimate that a goodly portion of most churches’ effort and energies is designed to go into areas utterly unrelated to charitable works and closely related to reinforcing superstition and primitive fear and hatred among their congregants. Not cool. 2. I try, of course, to avoid spending time with most religious people, but I’ve seen too many ministers in fancy suits, driving impressive cars, taking nice vacations, etc. not to doubt them when they claim to be working for the poor and weak. If you have no use for learning, and prefer to characterize what I do as “showing up and yammering,” I really can’t argue with you. That is what I do. I like to think my students get some value from my yammering, but it’s possible that they’re wasting their time in school. They’d certainly save a lot of tuition money if they dropped out because of my empty yammering, and they’re certainly free to do so. If you want to open a thread in GD advocating abolishing universities, I’d gladly argue with you there. Why do you have such a hard time allowing me the same courtesy regarding my belief that abolishing religion would be a virtue? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/133 "2006-12-26T15:52:00Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] 1. I try, of course, to avoid spending time with most religious people, but I’ve seen too many ministers in fancy suits, driving impressive cars, taking nice vacations, etc. not to doubt them when they claim to be working for the poor and weak. If you have no use for learning, and prefer to characterize what I do as “showing up and yammering,” I really can’t argue with you. That is what I do. I like to think my students get some value from my yammering, but it’s possible that they’re wasting their time in school. They’d certainly save a lot of tuition money if they dropped out because of my empty yammering, and they’re certainly free to do so. If you want to open a thread in GD advocating abolishing universities, I’d gladly argue with you there. Why do you have such a hard time allowing me the same courtesy regarding my belief that abolishing religion would be a virtue? [/QUOTE] Certainly, I’ve seen them too. I’m not a huge defender of the Catholic Church (recovering Catholic), but I remember visiting the rectory and my parish priest several times. You’d leave your coat on when you visited him, because the rectory was old and badly insulated. His sister lived with him and kept his house. Their provisions were meager. He drove a ten year old car that had been donated to him by a parishioner. The furniture in the rectory was all old and dated. I never thought of him as a particularly good man - he was a priest, a somewhat judgemental and uncharistmatic one at that - but what small salary was given to him as a priest was not going to fancy cars. Perhaps he had a gambling problem, but my understanding was that most of his salary was going to help poor parishioners. He was apparently fairly generous in that regard - within his limited means - since his stipend was not much. There are certainly “religious” professionals out to line their own pockets. There are certainly “religious” professionals that don’t. My own guess is that religion turns out to be a net positive in world history. While certainly a lot of bad has been done under the banner of religion, a lot of good has been done as well. Religious organizations fed the poor long before our government thought they had a role to play there. Religious organizations were instrimental in ending slavery and securing Civil Rights in this country. Once, nearly all hospitals were religious. Not everyone has the moral compass to be a good person without a religious foundation. Some people need the rule book - and a belief that cheating will get caught and punished. Although there are many forms of Christianity who have a warped rule book, the basics are far from horrible - its a pretty good moral foundation - don’t steal, don’t lie, don’t kill. Note that I’m not saying that everyone needs the rule book. I’m married to a very ethical atheist. However, I’m always surprised how many people assume that if you didn’t have the rule book and a God, you would plunder and pillage to your heart’s content - I’m not exactly sure we should convince those people there isn’t a God who is there to keep them in line. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/134 "2006-12-26T16:09:48Z")
[QUOTE=Dangerosa] I’m not exactly sure we should convince those people there isn’t a God who is there to keep them in line. [/QUOTE] Like I say, religion, from sun-worship to scientology, has served a purpose in getting us from being chimpanzees’ slightly smarter older brothers to the enlightened beings we are today. But it’s outmoded, and its practitioners haven’t gotten the message yet, or are fiercely resisting getting it. But rationality, atheism, enlightenment (which are three parts of the same thing) is spreading, and it’s a good thing. You educate people through the slow abolition of primitive and superstitious ideas. It just takes longer than we thought at first, to paraphrase a great and noble thinker. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/135 "2006-12-26T21:22:15Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] 1. You might be very surprised at the charitable work that _actual Christian churches_ do – not Westboro Baptist or Jerry Falwell’s, to be sure, but the typical Methodist, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Catholic parish’s outreach efforts to provide help. [/QUOTE] Yep. Where would we be today without Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.? Or the incredibly heroic and selfless work of Archbishop Romero in El Salvador? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/136 "2006-12-26T23:57:03Z")
> [@W.K. Clifford](#): > > A shipowner was about to send to sea an emigrant-ship. He knew that she was old, and not overwell built at the first; that she had seen many seas and climes, and often had needed repairs. Doubts had been suggested to him that possibly she was not seaworthy. These doubts preyed upon his mind, and made him unhappy; he thought that perhaps he ought to have her thoroughly overhauled and and refitted, even though this should put him at great expense. Before the ship sailed, however, he succeeded in overcoming these melancholy reflections. He said to himself that she had gone safely through so many voyages and weathered so many storms that it was idle to suppose she would not come safely home from this trip also. He would put his trust in Providence, which could hardly fail to protect all these unhappy families that were leaving their fatherland to seek for better times elsewhere. He would dismiss from his mind all ungenerous suspicions about the honesty of builders and contractors. In such ways he acquired a sincere and comfortable conviction that his vessel was thoroughly safe and seaworthy; he watched her departure with a light heart, and benevolent wishes for the success of the exiles in their strange new home that was to be; and he got his insurance-money when she went down in mid-ocean and told no tales. > > What shall we say of him? Surely this, that he was verily guilty of the death of those men. It is admitted that he did sincerely believe in the soundness of his ship; but the sincerity of his conviction can in no wise help him, because he had no right to believe on such evidence as was before him. He had acquired his belief not by honestly earning it in patient investigation, but by stifling his doubts. And although in the end he may have felt so sure about it that he could not think otherwise, yet inasmuch as he had knowingly and willingly worked himself into that frame of mind, he must be held responsible for it. > > Let us alter the case a little, and suppose that the ship was not unsound after all; that she made her voyage safely, and many others after it. Will that diminish the guilt of her owner? Not one jot. When an action is once done, it is right or wrong for ever; no accidental failure of its good or evil fruits can possibly alter that. The man would not have been innocent, he would only have been not found out. The question of right or wrong has to do with the origin of his belief, not the matter of it; not what it was, but how he got it; not whether it turned out to be true or false, but whether he had a right to believe on such evidence as was before him. This illustrates that we are responsible for our beliefs. No matter how popular, or seemingly positive or feel-good they are, we should be held to a standard of integrity when choosing which beliefs dictate our lives and actions. When blue laws, religious lobbying, and immersion in theism is rampant in our culture, it is a bad thing for all of us. Take Dawkins’ views on the tragedies of 9/11: > [@](#): > > Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where’s the harm? September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labelled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let’s now stop being so damned respectful! Islam is not solely to blame here. Christianity and Judaism have their share of pious massacres to answer for. Does all the fellowship, all the warm feelings and all Sundays singing hymns make up for even one violent death in the name of that belief? Do they make up for thousands? Millions? Let’s go to Dawkins again, > [@](#): > > A recent Gallup poll concluded that nearly 50% of the American public believes the universe is less than 10,000 years old. Nearly half the population, in other words, believes that the entire universe, the sun and solar system, the Milky Way galaxy, the Andromeda galaxy, and all the billions of other galaxies, all began after the domestication of the dog. They believe this because they rate a particular bronze age origin myth more highly than all the scientific evidence in the world. It is only one of literally thousands of such myths from around the world, but it happened, by a series of historical accidents, to become enshrined in a book – Genesis – which, by another series of historical accidents, has been translated and disseminated to almost every home in the land plus – infuriatingly – every hotel room. Even before science told us the true story of the origin of the world and the evolution of life, there was no reason to believe the Jewish origin myth any more than the origin myths of the Yoruba or the Kikuyu, the Yanomamo or the Maori, the Dogon or the Cherokee. Now, in the 21st century as we approach Darwin’s bicentenary, the fact that half of Americans take Genesis literally is nothing less than an educational scandal. > > The enlightenment is under threat. So is reason. So is truth. So is science, especially in the schools of America. I am one of those scientists who feels that it is no longer enough just to get on and do science. We have to devote a significant proportion of our time and resources to defending it from deliberate attack from organized ignorance. We even have to go out on the attack ourselves, for the sake of reason and sanity. But it must be a positive attack, for science and reason have so much to give. They are not just useful, they enrich our lives in the same kind of way as the arts do. Is it defensible to stifle education in such ways? Is it somehow _not_ harmful? Many of you like to repeat the argument that outspoken atheists come off as grumpy, and their approach is “not winning anyone to their side.” I submit that an honest person does not stand on the side which is friendliest, but the side which he believes is right. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2006, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/137 "2006-12-27T00:23:16Z")
**Cisco** , you’ve gone and done something the OP seemingly can’t be arsed to do- you’ve introduced into this thread some sound arguments showing damage to society done by organized religion. Specifically, you cite blue laws and lobbying by religious groups to stifle education; to those I would add organized repression of homosexuals and opposition to medically sound procedures and counselling on the basis of religious dogma. I think you (or really Dawkins as quoted by you) go over the top on blaming religion in general for wars fought over dogmatic differences and for the actions of religious fanatics. This product of authoritarianism would be present with or without religion as an enabler - and most philosophies would work just as well to enable fanaticism. (Also, I’m constantly amazed at the number of intelligent people who keep saying “September 11 changed everything” in order to justify the same set of beliefs they espoused before September 11.) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2006, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/138 "2006-12-27T02:02:27Z")
**Cisco** , in what public schools is Creationism being taught instead of the theory of evolution? I accept Dawkins figures that 50% of the population believes that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, but there is no supporting evidence that those people are the very ones endoctrinated by fundamentalist Christian doctrine. In fact, from what I read recently, fundamentalists make up only 40% of _Christians_ in this country. That would be far less than 50% of the population of the country. I can understand why Dawkins is so frustrated, but it does a disservice to blame _everything_ on all Christians. I don’t even know any Christians who object to blue laws anymore! I’m sure there are some and that they are vocal. They just aren’t a majority. Those of you who see television evangelists or ministers from these mega churches and think that they are typical of ministers are naive. My church back home currently has ministerial students from a nearby college to come by and preach a sermon for a modest honorarium. How are churches with two or three hundred members going to have wealthy ministers? Five hundred members is considered a reasonably large membership in the South. And the churches _do_ provide opportunities for those who want to make a difference for those in need. I’ve been going to one church for a little over a month. They’ve collected books for a library in Belize, collected new hats, gloves and mittens for the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota (where so many don’t have heat through the winter – 80 to 85% unemployment), and provided a chance to sign up to work on disaster relief for a week in New Orleans. I think that there are many main stream churches like this. And I don’t intend to be critical of all fundamental churches either. There are some that get pushy, but there are many more that don’t. Some of you listen only to the loud mouths and the ones that make the news and you think that is typical. Where are your critical thinking skills? Have we moved away from blue laws? Yes Have we moved away from forced Bible reading and teacher initiated prayer in public schools? Yes Have we moved away from spending public monies on nativity scenes in the public parks? Yes I _know_ that there are Christians who would like to make this country into a theocracy. That will do more to unite main stream Christians and atheists in American than anything I can think of. We are also rather fond of the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2006, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/139 "2006-12-27T02:25:02Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Cisco, in what public schools is Creationism being taught instead of the theory of evolution? Google “intelligent design”. If you’re not familiar with what a hot-button this issue has been in the last couple of years I’m not even sure we should be having this discussion. > [@](#): > > I accept Dawkins figures that 50% of the population believes that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, but there is no supporting evidence that those people are the very ones endoctrinated by fundamentalist Christian doctrine. Ah, so where do you suppose they got that novel idea from? Certainly not all churches who preach this doctrine are forced to label themselves fundamentalists, are they? > [@](#): > > I can understand why Dawkins is so frustrated, but it does a disservice to blame everything on all Christians. Not quite sure what you’re getting at here. I can name literally thousands of things that Dawkins does not blame on Christianity. In fact, he was strongly opposed to naming his last documentary _Root of all Evil_ because he does not, in fact, believe that religion is the root of all evil. So . . . I believe this is a strawman. > [@](#): > > Those of you who see television evangelists or ministers from these mega churches and think that they are typical of ministers are naive. My church back home currently has ministerial students from a nearby college to come by and preach a sermon for a modest honorarium. How are churches with two or three hundred members going to have wealthy ministers? Five hundred members is considered a reasonably large membership in the South. And how many of those two or three hundred member modest churches does it take to make up for one 30-million member Ted Haggard mega church? How many of your ministerial students have the ear of the single most powerful man on the planet? Who is being naive here? > [@](#): > > And the churches do provide opportunities for those who want to make a difference for those in need. I’ve been going to one church for a little over a month. They’ve collected books for a library in Belize, collected new hats, gloves and mittens for the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota (where so many don’t have heat through the winter – 80 to 85% unemployment), and provided a chance to sign up to work on disaster relief for a week in New Orleans. I think that there are many main stream churches like this. Who ever said churches didn’t do this stuff? I believe my exact words were: _Does all the fellowship, all the warm feelings and all Sundays singing hymns make up for even one violent death in the name of that belief? Do they make up for thousands? Millions?_ > [@](#): > > Have we moved away from forced Bible reading and teacher initiated prayer in public schools? Yes Don’t be so sure. I was in public school as little as 10 years ago and I had many teachers growing up - and especially in high school - who liked to start lectures with, "There’s a GOOD BOOK whose title I’m not allowed to mention here that says . . . " We also had “Bible History” class which was, for all practical purposes, church. > [@](#): > > I don’t even know any Christians who object to blue laws anymore! Funny, I’ve never met a dedicated Christian who objected to blue laws. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492/140 "2006-12-27T02:41:58Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Google “intelligent design”. [/QUOTE] I’m aware there are those who wish that ID be taught instead or even alongside Evolution; however, the question put to you was in which public schools is it actually being taught instead of the legitimate scientific version, Evolution? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-hurting-me-jayjay/385492.md?page=8)