# How is it moral to proselytize? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224 "2005-06-14T15:30:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/41 "2005-06-14T17:41:15Z")
Let me break it down: 1. \*\*If \*\* you think that your way is the right way. And you are genuinely _worried that I am unsaved_, and you’re not trying to convert me because your religion needs more followers, or your temple needs more money, or because unthinkingly you are doing so, and if I have taken the time to learn about your religion and understand it, and if I’m unhappy with my religion and don’t feel like I need answers, then it’s OK for you to tell me about your religion and try to convert me. 2. It is not OK for you to take over another country and tell them to convert. 3. It is not OK for you to go into another country and go to the poor and uneducated and give them something and \*without educating them thoroughly \* tell them your god is the best. 4. It is of course not OK to force me to change, that’s not a real change anyway. 5. It is not OK to come to my door, unasked and unwanted, at any time. It’s not and you may try and justify it as you wish but it’s wrong. 6. It’s OK, if I tell you about a personal problem, and you say, for example “May I tell you about Jesus Christ?” and I say yes, that’s OK. Phew! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/42 "2005-06-14T17:45:35Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > 1. It is not OK to come to my door, unasked and unwanted, at any time. It’s not and you may try and justify it as you wish but it’s wrong. Is it OK if I come to come to your door, unasked and unwanted, to try to sell you a vacuum cleaner or set of encyclopedias? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/43 "2005-06-14T17:51:40Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Don’t you believe that there’s a line between freedom of speech and persuasion? No, in fact that seems to be a really silly notion. > [@](#): > > Is there anything wrong with people taking about their beliefs in hopes that people will join their way of thinking? Welcome to persuasion land. > [@](#): > > They are however using some very significant methods of persuasion, most often on those who are at their weakest and most desperate, and this I believe is wrong. No matter how true and/or innocous their message is, this practice is fundamentally repulsive. What’s a significant method of persuasion? We’re not talking about a food for bibles program. I don’t see anything wrong with using those evil methods of persuasion on someone who might be down. As long as they’re not being exploited what’s the big deal? > [@](#): > > This practice is not “charity” in my meaning of the word and crosses the line to be something beyond “free speech” or “freedom of religion”. Something decidedly evil. I still disagree. Marc ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/44 "2005-06-14T17:51:50Z")
Canister or upright? ---
**Author:** ![I\_don\_t\_care\_about\_your\_cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f08c70/32.png) [@I\_don\_t\_care\_about\_your\_cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_don_t_care_about_your_cat)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/45 "2005-06-14T17:52:20Z")
I think I agree with the already stated view: While proselytizers annoy the hell out of me, I’ve always rather thought that, if one truly believes that the consequence of failure to convert is eternal damnation, that not only would it be moral, but morally _imperative_ to try to convince others. If you _know_ (or believe you know, at any rate), that a person is in danger, are you not obligated to try to warn him/her? Of course, I believe they are wrong, but from _their_ standpoint, wouldn’t the obligation to try to convince me still exist? ---
**Author:** ![comrade33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@comrade33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/comrade33)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/46 "2005-06-14T18:02:31Z")
although i think that proselytizing is inherently arrogant (and i consider arrogance foolish, but not immoral per se), i do not think that it does a great deal of harm. for example, [most lds converts do not stick around in the long run](http://xmo.lege.net/packham/growth.htm) (you’ll have to do a bit of scrolling, but its there along with information comparing lds growth to that of other religions). i also think that most people that are converted to a new religion through proselyters were confused in the first place (sounds harsh, i know, but its just an opinion). also, correct me if i am wrong, but in regards to the hindu thing, i thought that you had to be born into india’s caste system (be born an indian) to be able to escape the grasp of maya and obtain enlightenment. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/47 "2005-06-14T18:11:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is it OK if I come to come to your door, unasked and unwanted, to try to sell you a vacuum cleaner or set of encyclopedias? Yes because… a) you can \*prove \* to me that the vacuum or encyclopedias is worth more to me than my old vacuum (or not) b) they’re not really on the same wavelength. Vaccum or religion? Apples and alternators! A better question would be, is it moral for someone to come to my door, unasked, and unwanted, to try and change my political party. And the answer to that is: no. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/48 "2005-06-14T18:19:35Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > OK, so it’s moral for you to tell them not to go over that waterfall to certain doom. I can accept that opinion, but does it cross the line to becoming immoral if you pull a gun on the pig-headed kayaker when he insists you’re wrong? What if you threaten to throw his lunch and sleeping bag onto the fire if he insists? Sure, you’re saving him, but do the ends justify the means? What if you offer to give him $500 not to go into that water, is that immoral? It is bribary after all. We are now entering moral autonomy territory. Your status as a moral agent entitles you to make moral decisions for yourself. Using violence to convert the unpersuaded is an easy case. You are then treating the person as an object (objectifying them, as it were), which denies them any choice at all. In some cases, this might be justified–you have no moral right to murder me, and I’ve got a moral right to prevent you by any means necessary, even if you think murdering me is ok, or that you aren’t really murdering me. OTOH, I have a right to decide for myself whether I care about eternal damnation (or if it exists, for that matter). My decision does not affect your rights, so you can’t morally coerce me into changing my mind. What about giving me $500. It seems to take the morality out of the decision to some extent. I’m not really deciding for myself that I believe you (you’ll never know for sure that I do, and I probably won’t), but hey, for some amount of money, I’d probably say that I believed you because: a. Then you would shut up. b. I’d be 500 bucks richer–I could afford a dog to keep proselytizers away. The problem is that the line gets blurry. What if instead of giving you $500, I tell you that I’ll let you keep your welfare benefits if you agree with me–otherwise, I will take them away? Or what if you are very poor and I offer to give you enough money to keep your daughter from being forced into prostitution if you agree with me? What if you are unable to feed yourself, and I offer to give you food and shelter if you will agree with me? What if I tell you that unless you agree with me, you will be raped by the huge invisible monster that lives under your bed (when I know that there is no monster under your bed)? If you agree in these cases, have you made a choice? The real question then is when does my belief that your well-being is at stake override your interest in moral autonomy? Among the sub-questions: 1. How certain do I have to be? 2. What kinds of interests must be at stake? ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/49 "2005-06-14T18:19:49Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > . . . I guess if you’re to accept that simple “witnessing” is not immoral and is their duty, then you’ll also have to accept the KKK’s interest in spreading it’s beliefs as being moral too. So long as neither example encourages violence of course. Hmm. . . interesting point. Since I consider the KKK’s message to be immoral, I suppose I must take the next step and acknowledge that spreading it is immoral, as well. Which means that I will refuse to participate in, or aid, its spreading. I don’t believe morality is relative, but I do believe that in most cases it’s normative only at a personal level – God is telling me to mind my own thoughts and actions, and never mind the other fellow (so long as violence doesn’t ensue – on that much you and I can agree). In the marketplace of ideas, hopefully the better message wins out in the long run. Which also means, should a clansman come try to peddle his wares my way, I’ll feel free to tell him to take a hike. Just as I won’t have my feelings hurt if someone were to tell me to take my Christian message elsewhere. So, no, I don’t have to accept that their proselytizing is moral, but that doesn’t mean I get to force my morality on them. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/50 "2005-06-14T18:26:12Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > No, in fact that seems to be a really silly notion. Actually it’s not. While you can split semantic hairs, the premise is that it’s OK to talk to me and try and tell me why your point of view it right. It’s not OK to try and coerce and bribe me into thinking that way by providing schools and services. While you can use the word “persuade” in either case, it’s pretty clear that, to my point, the concepts are distinct. > [@](#): > > What’s a significant method of persuasion? We’re not talking about a food for bibles program. I don’t see anything wrong with using those evil methods of persuasion on someone who might be down. As long as they’re not being exploited what’s the big deal? No, that’s _exactly_ what we’re talking about here. At least parts of the thread are. We’ve discussed “I’ll dig you a well, while I’m here I’ll build a church and tell you about my religion”. We’ve discussed hospitals that are the province of the believers only. There’s nuns out giving vaccinations. There’s nothing altruistic about any of those endavours. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/51 "2005-06-14T18:26:48Z")
I have a real issue with people who think it’s their moral duty to convert me. Where does their obligation stop, after all? Wouldn’t it be the moral thing for them to send me to a reeducation camp, until I get the picture? Inconvenient for me, to be sure, but better than hellfire and eternal damnation, no? A basic premise of America – crudely put, of course – is that one religion is as good as another. Proselytizers don’t believe in that basic premise – they believe their religion is higher and better. And once they’ve gotten _that_ idea in their heads, look out – theocracy or religious warfare is on the horizon. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/52 "2005-06-14T18:32:22Z")
Jesus did call upon people to spread the Gospel (good news) of the Kingdom of Heaven, but He very clearly specified that people were not to be hassled. He instructed his disciples that if people weren’t receptive, they should move on. It’s not supposed to be a brow beating, but an announcement. A man should convert only of his own free will. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/53 "2005-06-14T18:36:40Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Yes because… > > a) you can \*prove \* to me that the vacuum or encyclopedias is worth more to me than my old vacuum (or not) > b) they’re not really on the same wavelength. Vaccum or religion? Apples and alternators! A better question would be, is it moral for someone to come to my door, unasked, and unwanted, to try and change my political party. And the answer to that is: no. What if you ask me, “Why should I buy your vacuum cleaner – can you prove it’s better than my current one?” and I reply, “I am sure it is, but I have nothing that you would accept as proof - just my own conviction that these are good vacuum cleaners.” Is his action immoral then? In fact, what if, unbeknownst to the vacuum cleaner salesman, you have a truly outstanding, ultra-high-end vacuum cleaner at home, and the one he’s peddling is, as far as you can tell, not superior to yours but vastly inferior. Is his action immoral then? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/54 "2005-06-14T18:38:35Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Two things: > Most of the time when you’re talking about conversions the converter is much more educated than the convertee. In which case the responsibility does lie with the convertor. You put forth the OP asking about conversion in general. Not when one party is more educated than the other, et cetera. Besides, While what you say is likely the truth, we cannot be certain. What constitutes an act of attempted conversion? How many take place in Europe and the U.S., relative to the number taking place in the Third World, with its popularized imagery of the Christian Missionary? Secondly, I don’t feel that one party having superior education shifts the blame. The convertee is the sole point of decision. Some have been known to convert without overt provocation, in fact. Simply being more educated than someone doesn’t mean that you can manipulate them as if they had no free will. > [@](#): > > Not to mention that, as other people have stated, things people need often come with strings attached. Do you want to go to this hospital, the only hospital in the area? Then you must pray to Sai Baba and be a \*bhakt \* (devotee). That’s not the same thing as simple conversion, though. That’s passive coercion. Again, I’m talking about the general case. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/55 "2005-06-14T18:39:20Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > There’s nothing altruistic about any of those endavours. If they truly believe that what they’re doing furthers the welfare of those whom they’re helping, and they do it at a cost to themselves, then it is the very definition of altruism. You may disagree with their religion, but that doesn’t make their motivations any less unselfish. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/56 "2005-06-14T18:41:44Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > An interesting analogy. There are many who would argue that the tycoon’s actions are inherently arrogant, because he didn’t just give the poor, huddled masses the opportunity to becomes tycoons on their own but instead decided they needed his help. I wouldn’t be one of them, personally…but I also don’t feel that material actions such as you describe necessarily equate to intellectual actions like proselytizing. Also, it’s not as if the entire act has to be either completely immoral or completely moral…it’s possible to perform a moral act but be immoral in your attitude while you’re doing it. Hee. “Immoral in your attitude”. That’s funny. It’s completely irrelevant to the point I was making, since we were talking about the morality of the act, but it’s funny. “Well, you baked all the cakes for those orphans, but you shouldn’t have been drooling over that construction worker across the street while you were serving them.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/57 "2005-06-14T18:50:54Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > There are two ways to look at this attitudde: my preferred way and the argumentative way. > > My preferred way is to say that Catholics have a right (and a duty) to explain why it is we’re building these things. Maybe you, after having partaken of Christian charity, will want to give back. And that’s fine, if it takes the form of witnessing e.g. a meeting in the town hall to explain why the new well was dug by those crazy americans. Advertising said meeting also being OK. If, however, you say you’ll only open the new hospital if everyone in town is baptised, well, you’re going to the _special_ hell, IMHO. With the people who talk too loud in the theatre. > [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > The argumentative way would be to say if you don’t like the message, you don’t have to come be cured in the missionary hospital. And they’d be perfectly within their rights to do so. It will, however, expose their “charity” for the spiritual blackmail it truly is. > [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > If you’re depending on charity, it’s more than a little ungrateful to say, “you’ve done what I wanted, now go away.” “beggars can’t be choosers”, I know. Doesn’t make it any classier to do, though. _True_ charity is that which doesn’t ask for **anything** in return. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/58 "2005-06-14T18:52:45Z")
> [@Genghis Bob](#): > > So, no, I don’t have to accept that their proselytizing is moral, but that doesn’t mean I get to force my morality on them. We’ll probably get into more semantics here, but I suppose it begs the question of “what does moral mean?”. Is it a fluid construct, or is it something that should be self-evident to everyone? I’ve always used the definition which treats morals as an absolute. It is immoral to murder someone. It is not immoral to sleep with your cousin. The latter is considered wrong for lots of valid reasons, but I’m able to accept that some cultures don’t find it inapporpriate. Therefore, I wouldn’t call it immoral, even though I find it repellant. In that meaning of the word. I’d say that there’s nothing immoral about the KKK disseminating their ideas. I wouldn’t even call their hate-mongering to be immoral. One could make an argument that their self-important and narrow-minded views are valid. (For example, what if they were a independant, homogenous country? Would they be considered immoral if they had no need for hate crimes and such?) As it stands it’s wrong and disgusting, but not inherently immoral. I don’t tend to see morality issues as debatable. There’s got to be a word for those things that can be reasonably debated as being right or wrong. I don’t think morals are the term. In such a case, I see it as immoral to use duress as a persuasive tactic. Just as I see it as immoral to use charity to further your goals. Some people see the Christian dogma as being every bit as immoral as we see that of the KKK. So for you to rationalize the apparent hypocrisy between the two concepts by calling one immoral because the underlying belief is immoral, it seems to leave anyone who diagrees with your religion free to call you immoral. No value judgements for me, you could accept that flexible use of the term moral, it’s different than my definition. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/59 "2005-06-14T19:00:22Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > If they truly believe that what they’re doing furthers the welfare of those whom they’re helping, and they do it at a cost to themselves, then it is the very definition of altruism. > > You may disagree with their religion, but that doesn’t make their motivations any less unselfish. Thats the point. They aren’t doing it at “cost to themselves”. They see it as an investment with a return on that. Its in the best interest of the church to have more follwers. Long term, it’s not done out of charity. There’s probably a long argument to be had of their motivations. How skeptical is it to think that the interest of the church overrides the interest to “save” these people. I don’t know. But I think it’s naive to assume that the long term benefit of the church is not at least part of the equation. As such, it’s not altruistic, therein lies my problem. They are exploiting the needy. Hope we’re not too far off point here. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/60 "2005-06-14T19:22:08Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Its in the best interest of the church to have more follwers. Long term, it’s not done out of charity. We’ll just have to agree to disagree; I think that, several exceptions aside, most religions, even large and organized ones, are mostly populated with true belivers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224.md?page=4)