# How is it moral to proselytize? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224 "2005-06-14T15:30:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/81 "2005-06-15T02:54:45Z")
If an invisible man in the sky tells me the theater I am in is on fire, is it moral to stand up and shout,\*\* _“Fire!!”_ \*\* ? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/82 "2005-06-15T02:58:50Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > If an invisible man in the sky tells me the theater I am in is on fire, is it moral to stand up and shout,\*\* _“Fire!!”_ \*\* ? If you genuinely believe that God is telling you that the theater is on fire, and you believe him, then yes it is moral to stand up and shout, “Fire.” I’d suspect you were schizophrenic, but you’d be acting morally. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/83 "2005-06-15T03:08:02Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > If an invisible man in the sky tells me the theater I am in is on fire, is it moral to stand up and shout,\*\* _“Fire!!”_ \*\* ? I’d say that there are two aspects to your belief: an objective and a subjective one. If you genuinely believe that there is an invisible man in the sky, then your action is subjectively reasonable and, I would say, moral as far as you are concerned. If your belief is objectively reasonable as well, then everyone should agree that your action is reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/84 "2005-06-15T03:21:21Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > If you genuinely believe that God is telling you that the theater is on fire, and you believe him, then yes it is moral to stand up and shout, “Fire.” > > I’d suspect you were schizophrenic, but you’d be acting morally. > [@Bricker](#): > > If you genuinely believe that there is an invisible man in the sky, then your action is subjectively reasonable and, I would say, moral as far as you are concerned. > > If your belief is objectively reasonable as well, then everyone should agree that your action is reasonable. Doesn’t this open the door to rationalizing all kinds of acts that would create terror? Isn’t this what the Inquistion did? Were they not certain in their beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/85 "2005-06-15T03:31:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you are driving a schoolbus down a steep mountain road, and the brakes fail, and a little girl is playing in the road, you can run over the child or drive the off the mountain, killing many children. > > Whichever you chose, someone will be left with the impression that you chose to kill for no reason: the crash investigators have no way of knowing about the girl, and the hit-and-run investigators have no way of knowing about the bad brakes. > > Your characterization of God’s actions are similarly uninformed. There is a reason for the temporal suffering of moral people. But as a human, you lack the perspective to understand it. You are the hit-and-run investigator before the bus’ situation is understood; all you can conclude is that the bus driver deliberately hit the girl. Or you are the crash scene investigator, concluding that the driver deliberately steered off the mountain to kill himself and all his passengers. > > You demand an explanation that fits your human perspective, and conclude that when none is forthcoming, none exists. Just like Mr. A. Square, of Flatland, you insist that what you can conceive as motive or logic is all that can possibly exist. “Mysterious ways” is a shrug, not an answer. I reject it outright. What’s not to understand? What am I not getting? If God can’t explain himself to in a way that is ethically satisfying to me then he’s not much of a God. I’m not submitting to anything I feel is evil and I feel that a God who who punishes good people because they failed to guess the magic number is evil. If I can’t trust my own moral compass, what can I trust? God is going to have to conform to my morality, I’m not conforming to his. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/86 "2005-06-15T03:48:56Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Doesn’t this open the door to rationalizing all kinds of acts that would create terror? Yup. So what? The question of whether or not someone is acting morally is different then the question of whether or not their beliefs are objectively correct. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/87 "2005-06-15T03:49:22Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I can accept that opinion, but does it cross the line to becoming immoral if you pull a gun on the pig-headed kayaker when he insists you’re wrong? Sure. So what? That’s not what the word proselytize means. > [@Anaamika](#): > > A better question would be, is it moral for someone to come to my door, unasked, and unwanted, to try and change my political party. And the answer to that is: no. Of course it is! How can you say this is immoral. Just because it bugs you? Where did you get the idea you’re allowed to live cloistered away from any ideas with which you disagree? That’s emphatically not the way America works. (Apologies if you’re not American, but I think I recall that you are.) > [@Marley23](#): > > Thinking you’re right is one thing. It’s another to be so sure you’re right, and to consider it so important that everyone agree with you, that you are honor-bound to try and win them over to your way of thinking. But there is so much pain in store for you if I can’t get you to believe me. Of course I’m honor-bound to get you to my way of thinking. Anyway, where is it written that you have to listen? Nowhere. Much, much more importantly, where is it written that you’re not allowed to proselytize the proselytizer? Nowhere. **Bricker** , [Dio\*\*, can we keep the problem of evil to a different thread? The correctness of a religious theory doesn’t seem to me to bear on the morality of a good-faith adherent spreading the word. Obviously it can’t, because there are proselytizers of different, mutually exclusive sects. Their moral worth cannot be measured simply by whether they’re knowledgeable or not, especially since there is no evidence acceptable to all observers about who really is right or not. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/88 "2005-06-15T03:59:14Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Yup. So what? > > The question of whether or not someone is acting morally is different then the question of whether or not their beliefs are objectively correct. That’s not the point. The point is that people are not morally excused for their actions just because they sincerely believe their God wants them to do it. The guys who crashed those planes into the WTC sincerely believed they were doing the will of God. Osama bin Laden probably believed it. Does that mean the action was not immoral? Is an action only immoral if a person _believes_ it’s immoral? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/89 "2005-06-15T04:31:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Thinking you’re right is one thing. It’s another to be so sure you’re right, and to consider it so important that everyone agree with you, that you are honor-bound to try and win them over to your way of thinking. Is that your way of thinking? Sounds to me like you’re trying to win us over to that viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/90 "2005-06-15T04:37:01Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That’s not the point. The point is that people are not morally excused for their actions just because they sincerely believe their God wants them to do it. Well no shit. But you prove too much. The morality of an action is not (fully) dependent on whether it’s done out of a sincere conviction that one is acting rightly; moreover, the morality of an action is not dependent on whether the sincere conviction happens to be correct. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/91 "2005-06-15T04:48:37Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > But there is so much pain in store for you if I can’t get you to believe me. Of course I’m honor-bound to get you to my way of thinking. I said that in my first post, which was the very first post after the OP. I understand the perspective and am not trying to argue with it the same way **Anaamika** was. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/92 "2005-06-15T04:54:15Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Is that your way of thinking? Sounds to me like you’re trying to win us over to that viewpoint. Thanks, the irony is delicious. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/93 "2005-06-15T05:06:45Z")
In case that’s insufficient - actually, I don’t think it is. If this thread is going to turn into a game of “you said , therefore you’re proselytizing with it” I’ll find better ways to waste my time. Is the distinction I’m drawing here - on one hand, a discussion held by two people who don’t agree but can share ideas and perhaps enhance each others understanding, and on the other hand and one person proselytizing to try and covert another to his ideology - really that thin? I don’t think it is. If I’m wrong, it would seem to me that proselytizing is basically the same thing as talking, which renders the term meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/94 "2005-06-15T05:11:35Z")
I really don’t think there is a problem with a guy going door to door peddling his religion. However I think that when you go to desperate people in need of aid and try to get them to change their religion there is something at least morally questionable about that. Its similar to say giving someone a shoulder to cry on while the entire time your motivation was to sleep with that person. In general there is nothing wrong with sex or religion but when you take advantage of someones need or weakness for your own gain that seems to me atleast morally questionable. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/95 "2005-06-15T11:54:37Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > “Mysterious ways” is a shrug, not an answer. I reject it outright. What’s not to understand? What am I not getting? In the late TV series “Wonderfalls,” the lead character, Jaye, was told to do various seemingly random and crazy things by otherwise inanimate animal figurines (lawn flamingoes, stuffed bears, wax lions, and the like). Because this was a TV show, we, the viewer, were able to see and understand all of the effects of these actions. For example, in one episode, Jaye deliberately smashes the back of a car belonging to a priest; the priest has been visiting the area for reasons relating to another story thread. Now, if we left the incident there, you might reasonably conclude that the voices Jaye hears are malicious - that they don’t conform to your moral compass. After all, they have just damaged property, for no good reason. As the priest is leaving the area, he’s stopped by the police for the non-functioning tailight… and a routine check of his license reveals that there’s a warrant out for him for unpaid child support. He’s stunned to hear this – he had no idea he had a child. As we eventually learn, before he entered the seminary, he had a relationship with a woman who got pregnant but chose not to tell him; after financial pressures became too great, she tried to track him down but couldn’t, applied for financial aid, and of course had to list the father’s name. So, Father learns he’s a father, and much good ensues. Is it absolutely impossible to believe that an act that appears senseless, even destructive, from your limited prespective on the ground is actually interacting with other events that you cannot see or comprehend? Or is your personal sensory perception and mental capacity to understand things the absolute possible limit in the universe, and if you cannot comprehend and understand something, it simply doesn’t exist? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/96 "2005-06-15T12:03:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Thanks, the irony is delicious. :rolleyes: If the irony makes you uncomfortable, well… it should. The statement “It’s wrong to be so sure that you’re right that you must win other people over to your way of thinking” is simply self-refuting. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/97 "2005-06-15T12:16:34Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > How is it possible to believe that an omnibenevolent God would punish moral people? Do those people _deserve_ to be “doomed” or don’t they? If so, how can they be called moral. If not, then how can God? I very much agree with that. If a god is nothing but a perfect tyrant, then said god cannot be good. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/98 "2005-06-15T12:37:59Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > Arrogant? Probably, if this hypothetical legislation is motivated solely by this feeling that their race is better-off. Good-intentioned? Definitely. Moral… > > …well, that depends. Off-track in the first sentence. Tch. Their motivation is to help people. Just like the proselytizers. They feel they’re in a position to do so. Just like the proselytizers. Or, frankly, just like anyone who’s ever offered someone else helpful advice. > [@](#): > > Let’s be very careful to distinguish your hypothetical Affirmative Action program from such programs that actually exist. Your hypothetical AA program was enacted based on the feelings of certain hypothetical caucasian politicians. What if those hypothetical politicians are wrong? What if, in their hypothetical world, caucasian Americans are _not_ better off? Then their AA program is unjustly penalizing other caucasian Americans, isn’t it? Or, even if the Caucasian Americans _are_ better off, one could argue that the program represents discrimination in and of itself, and is therefore paradoxical and unjust. > [@](#): > > I think your new analogy illustrates my point better than yours. Your hypothetical politicians, _if they are acting out of a baseless conviction that they are correct_ and nothing else, may actually be doing harm, which is immoral. You were going along fine, then you lost me. An action which causes unintended, unexpected harm is not ipso facto immoral. An act which causes intentional, expected harm is not guaranteed to be immoral, even. > [@](#): > > Just as proselytizers who act solely out of a baseless conviction that they are correct–who just want to beat their listeners over the head with holy writ–are immoral due to their arrogance. On the other hand, if your hypothetical politicians are acting based on _evidence_ that caucasian Americans are better off, and are willing not only to share that evidence but also entertain other evidence that goes against their convictions, then there’s nothing immoral about their actions. Just as if a proselytizer is willing to engage in a dialogue–not only persuade, but be open to the possibility of being persuaded in turn–then there’s nothing immoral about their actions either. Ahh, so anonymous good deeds, by this logic, since they allow the one who benefits no chance to say ‘Actually, I might be able to help YOU out in this regard…’, are immoral. Because the benefactor, by remaining anonymous, has precluded any chance of being convinced by those who would benefit that they did not need his assistance. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/99 "2005-06-15T14:43:52Z")
I am acknowledging - and have acknowledged - that some prosetlyzing is OK, and even good & moral. I’ve backed down from my original position. As for the person who implies that not wanting people to come to my door and change my views is somehow…let’s see: “Where did you get the idea you’re allowed to live cloistered away from any ideas with which you disagree?” I don’t agree one bit that wishing my door not to be darkened by these people is equivalant to living cloistered away from these ideas! Just a bit of hyperbole there, don’t you think? Do I not see these ideas everywhere? I just don’t agree you have any right to be at my door, preaching to me. However, this discussion has gotten way over my head, as debates often do in GD. I’ll bow out, but continue listening and reading and I’ll post again if I have something to contribute. **rfgdxm** , I didn’t necesarily say Dopers say these things. I was challenging Dopers to provide reasons why these things were moral. Please don’t take everything personally. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/100 "2005-06-15T15:14:52Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I don’t agree one bit that wishing my door not to be darkened by these people is equivalant to living cloistered away from these ideas! Just a bit of hyperbole there, don’t you think? No, there is absolutely no hyperbole there. You don’t have a right to ignorance. If someone comes to your door and you don’t want to hear them, you can just close the door, you know. –Cliffy [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224.md?page=6)