# How is it moral to proselytize? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224 "2005-06-14T15:30:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/141 "2005-06-23T04:59:30Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m saying we can act upon our own perception of truth without trying to impose it on others. No, that’s not what you said. Your exact words were “It’s arrogant to assume the truth as you percieve it is the truth for everyone else as well.” That’s an entirely different claim. Besides which, even your re-phrased statement is self-refuting. You’re saying “People should not impose their perception of truth on others.” That is _your_ perception of truth, and you are (with all due respect) imposing it on the proselytizers. > [@](#): > > I agree with your statement here. Thats reading my statement a little too strictly. They do feel they know enough of God’s will to try and persuade others that their beliefs are the **only** right ones. In general they reject input from other religions or from those whom they regard as lost. They may believe sincerely and be sincerely concerned about the welfare of others, but it’s still arrogance. Again, why? At best, these people are mistaken. Believing themselves to be right doesn’t make them arrogant; after all, do you not believe yourself to be right in your criticism of their actions? Similarly, what is so arrogant about rejecting conclusions that do not jibe with your own beliefs? You yourself believe that people should not proselytize. In order to be non-arrogant, should you not open yourself to the notion that proselytizing is not inherently arrogant? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/142 "2005-06-23T11:54:45Z")
[QUOTE] > [@JThunder](#): > > No, that’s not what you said. Your exact words were “It’s arrogant to assume the truth as you percieve it is the truth for everyone else as well.” That’s an entirely different claim. Granted. However we are talking about a specific subject. Let’s assume that my statements refer to the subject of the thread. {I know thats not always the case in GD} Those who proselytize feel that their view of god is the view everyone should have i.e. how we are “saved” and what God thinks about certain issues. > [@](#): > > Besides which, even your re-phrased statement is self-refuting. You’re saying “People should not impose their perception of truth on others.” That is _your_ perception of truth, and you are (with all due respect) imposing it on the proselytizers. Do you mean self refuting or hypocritical? The difference is I know my opinion is only my opinion. I don’t give it any more weight than that. I’m also in a debate forum where people can offer their opinion and possibly alter mine. I’m not presenting my opinion as the will of God. Significant difference wouldn’t you say? > [@](#): > > Again, why? At best, these people are mistaken. Believing themselves to be right doesn’t make them arrogant; after all, do you not believe yourself to be right in your criticism of their actions? Yes, but I don’t believe my opinion is the will of God for all mankind…{Well there was that one week when I didn’t take my meds, but I digress} > [@](#): > > Similarly, what is so arrogant about rejecting conclusions that do not jibe with your own beliefs? nothing, thats not the arrogant part, although you might strech arrogance to include those who won’t even give consideration to a view other than their own. > [@](#): > > You yourself believe that people should not proselytize. In order to be non-arrogant, should you not open yourself to the notion that proselytizing is not inherently arrogant? You’re taking my statements out of the context of the thread and subject matter. You may see arrogance differently. It can be subtle and even hidden. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/143 "2005-06-23T11:56:45Z")
> [@groman](#): > > Most if not all of you seem to be disregarding a very obvious thing. > > I’d hesitate to call it a ‘fact’, but I strongly believe that it’s more than just an opinion I pulled out of thin air. > > That thing is that a good majority, if not most, of adherents to any religion (or atheism) are too busy, lazy, or stupid to understand it to any reasonable philosophical degree. They will not draw spiritual benefit from whatever religion missionaries et al offer them (and they are likely to take it, if the person doing the proselytizing is charismatic enough and the argument isn’t too outside their frame of understanding). This leads me to believe they are not saved regardless of what religion they chose, except maybe for those that believe you are saved regardless if you understand what you do in the religious context. Better then, to leave things as they are, to at least not cause social or familial unrest, to respect whatever moments of stability people’s society offer them. After all, very few religions attempt to proselytize to rocks or animals – maybe we can learn from our own example? We’re disregarding it because it has little to do with the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/144 "2005-06-23T17:46:44Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > We’re disregarding it because it has little to do with the thread title. Well no, I’m saying it’s immoral to prostelyze because it only has negative effects, i.e. it doesn’t actually spiritually save anyone regardless of what you believe in. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/145 "2005-06-23T19:02:30Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > So, teach me, Dopers, why is it OK to proselytize? Why are missionaries considered good people for coming into a foreign country, changing the rules, telling people they have to worship a certain god, and alienating them from their culture & traditions of thousands of years? > > For the purpose of this discussion, I mean \*any \* religion that converts people. So unless you’re using examples, please don’t pick on any one religion. It is not moral to proselytize. Proselytization is the furtherance of a religion. All religions are scams and lies. Therefore, if you proselytize, you are lying. And lying is not moral. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/146 "2005-06-23T23:16:03Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > It is not moral to proselytize. > > Proselytization is the furtherance of a religion. All religions are scams and lies. Therefore, if you proselytize, you are lying. And lying is not moral. Well heck fire and gosh durn, why didn’t we see that to begin with and we coulda’ saved ourselves a crapload a time. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/147 "2005-06-23T23:20:09Z")
> [@groman](#): > > Well no, I’m saying it’s immoral to prostelyze because it only has negative effects, i.e. it doesn’t actually spiritually save anyone regardless of what you believe in. Then we’d have to discuss what constitures salvation and thats another thread. I don’t believe it only has negative effects. Telling someone to turn to God might be a very positive thing for the right person. It might be the first step on a spiritual quest that takes them far. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/148 "2005-06-23T23:41:10Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Then we’d have to discuss what constitures salvation and thats another thread. > I don’t believe it only has negative effects. Telling someone to turn to God might be a very positive thing for the right person. It might be the first step on a spiritual quest that takes them far. Well, what I was trying to say is that most religions are pretty much the same if you don’t understand them. In the understanding, reflection and study lies the difference and true salvation. What I also was trying to say is that most proselytizers preach to people who already have a religion, insisting that their religion is better (and not atheists). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/149 "2005-06-24T01:17:52Z")
> [@groman](#): > > Well, what I was trying to say is that most religions are pretty much the same if you don’t understand them. In the understanding, reflection and study lies the difference and true salvation. I see, I agree to some extent. It is an ongoing process. > [@](#): > > What I also was trying to say is that most proselytizers preach to people who already have a religion, insisting that their religion is better (and not atheists). Here I don’t agree. Much of the preaching is done to people who have some religous background but no religous affiliation as well as atheists. They’ll preach to anyone who will give them a few minutes of their time. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/150 "2005-06-24T18:37:30Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > All religions are scams and lies. Really? All religions? Every single last one of them? Not merely mistaken, but deliberate deceptions (as evidenced by the phrase “scams and lies”)? Can you tell us the procedure by which you arrived at this rather strong conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/151 "2005-06-24T18:41:20Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Really? All religions? Every single last one of them? Not merely mistaken, but deliberate deceptions (as evidenced by the phrase “scams and lies”)? > > Can you tell us the procedure by which you arrived at this rather strong conclusion? What’s really ironic is that \*\*Clothahump \*\* is proselytizing. . . ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224/152 "2005-06-26T02:46:35Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Really? All religions? Every single last one of them? Not merely mistaken, but deliberate deceptions (as evidenced by the phrase “scams and lies”)? > > Can you tell us the procedure by which you arrived at this rather strong conclusion? Good Lord don’t encourage him to continue posting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-it-moral-to-proselytize/308224.md?page=7)