How is it possible to be an athiest?

Great Debates
41

Gitfiddle,

You got a bit closer with your second post, mostly because of its existence, proving that you are, at least not a drive-by witnesser. Some advice, if you don’t mind, from a Christian, on how to witness to the Godless, here in Straightdope territory.

Never imply that your opinions are the only opinions supportable by reasoned thinkers. It’s narrow minded, and, by the way, incorrect. Many very intelligent people don’t believe in God. It happens, in fact that a lot of people who do believe in God are fairly stupid. Our Lord loves them, of course, because love is His nature. But when someone claims that it is because of their intelligent view of factual matters that they believe in God, they spit on their own faith, and denigrate the mental abilities of anyone who disagrees with them. Bad tactics, at least.

If you aren’t ready to critically examine the philosophical details of your own belief that you yourself exist, you are not ready to enter the debate on the existence of God, in this forum. Read the links supplied here, and follow them to the many other great works of literature and faith written by other that believe in what you do, and those who disagree. It is a life’s work, of course. But it will hone your mind into an instrument that could serve the Lord, if you do so.

Or, just accept that fact that what you are seeking to defend is your faith in God, not your belief in Him. Defend your faith with your works, and don’t make spurious claims about what “all clergy” are like, unless you wish to defend the pedophile priests along with the martyrs of the church. People are fallible, and that fallibility is not limited to atheists. If you have faith, and live your life in service to the Lord, and to all His children He will notice. Whether someone else notices is really not your business, is it?

Speak out boldly in affirmation of your faith whenever someone asks, of course. But make no vain claim to be able to tell others “The Truth.” Even our Lord remained silent, when asked to do that. Shall we attempt what He chose not to?

Tris

“Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage.” ~ Lao-Tzu ~

42

So you’re saying that children are born with birth defects or contract cancer because they choose it? Are you saying that free will is responsible for typhoons that kill people in Bangladesh each year, for earthquakes, for all the suffering in the world? That makes little sense.

A) What are the Steps of Loredo?
B) Tacitus wrote in the Annals that the riots of the Jews in rome were incited by one Chrestus. In Flavius Josephus’s, Antiquities of the Jews, is the passage:

But that is generally acknowledged to be an interpolation inserted by a Christian forger. and Pliny the Younger only wrote a letter to the Emperor Trajan on the interrogation of accused Christians,

and is in no way a testimony to Jesus’s divinity (or even fabulousness). The Dead Sea Scrolls are religious texts from the Qumran Essene community, which, having been written in the 1st Century BCE, don’t have any relevance to Jesus at all! In any event, just because a written claim to divinity exists is no reason to take it literally. If you did, you’d have one crowded pantheon: the Reverend Moon, Hung Hsiu-ch’üan (the failed scholar who thought he was Jesus’s younger brother and who started the Taiping Rebellion), David Koresh, Jim Jones…

Pascal’s Wager has already been refuted many times on this board. By your reasoning, you might as well be a Muslim: after all, God revealed Himself through the Holy Qu’ran that was recited by His prophet, Muhammad (Peace be upon him), and the benefits of believing in God and performing the Five Pillars of Islam outweigh the ease of disbelief.

43

I don’t doubt that believing in God can make people happy. I don’t think that people shouldn’t feel happy because they do believe. But I don’t believe, and I am just as happy.

I look at it this way. This universe that we know is mind-bogglingly big. And as far as we know, we’re it. There is most likely some other life out there, but it’s so far away, we haven’t found it. In other words, the odds of myself and everyone else actually existing are pretty slim. I think it’s pretty neato to have this life.

I try to enjoy my time in life as best I can, and to make it as enjoyable as possible for everyone else, too. If there is a God and he’s as great a guy as religion likes to say, I think I should be all right. I just don’t buy into the whole “be nice to me or you’re in trouble” idea of God.

44

There is another flaw in the watchmaker argument. The watchmaker argument has as a premise that the watch was unexpectedly found among the chaos of the universe around it. The watch was a piece of order and organization amidst an environment of disorder and unorganization. And what is that disorder and unorganization? Why, it’s the universe itself, which was supposed to be ordered and organized so as to have a “watchmaker” of it’s own! Furthermore, the universe has no disorder around it with which it can be compared. There is nothing disorderly outside the universe that we have perceived that would make the universe seem orderly, while the watch did have chaos and disorganization to be compared to.

Actually, it’s quite easy to disprove the existence of Invisible Pink Unicorns. In order for something to be pink, it has to reflect visible light waves within a range of frequency that is perceived as pink. Since invisible things by definition do not reflect light waves, there can be no invisible pink anythings.

The arguments against God are usually not so straightforward, relying on arguments that God, if he exists, is a superfluous part of the universe and according to Occam’s Razor, does not exist, as was my own reasoning when I became an atheist.

45

Blasphemer!

The IPU is divinely pink, possessing a spiritual pinkness that can only be perceived in the heart, not by the eyes.

46

So you’re a Heartitarian, gobear? Pffft. That heresy was throroughly disproved by Gleem MacDougall in his Study in Rose Madder. I just don’t understand how you Heartitarians cannot see that the only obvious solution is that the IPU is invisible, but if She were visible, she would be pink. I’m not sure Heartitarians qualify as IPUists at all!

47

Aha! You confess that the IPU possesses an innate Pinkness that has not yet been made manifest in the visible light segment of the electromagnetic spectrum. Thus ever do we disprove the heretical assertions of the Visionists.

48

OK, I feel that I was completely misunderstood.

Triskadecamus, I never meant to give the impression that I was calling atheists stupid for their beliefs. If anything, I was pointing out my own ignorance by not understanding the logic behind being an atheist. I’m not a preachy person, so I was not sermonizing atheists (Change now or toil in eternal hell fire-ah!–not me so much). I believe it was St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas who said, “Preach the Gospel, and, if necessary, use words.” If any, that is the approach I would use. I’m not out to force my beliefs on anyone.

gobear, I would like to first point out that I am but a young college student, so I have a lot to learn. I went to parochial schools for eight years (both Baptist and Catholic, odd isn’t it?). When, I mentioned the historians I was simply that there was a historical basis for the people in the Bible. I was not Testifying as to their divinity. However, it is interesting that Jesus had followers that were willing to die for him, which many of them did. If he was just a hoax or just a charismatic man, then people would not be as likely to die for him.
Now, I’m sure I’ll get hundred more suggestions of men that had disciples that readilly died for them. Actually, I would like to hear any others in history that had people willing to be tortured and killed for him. Keep in mind that these were people that knew Jesus and were willing to die for Him, not people who learned about Him (obviously those certainly do exist as well).
Furthermore, as far as cancer and birth defects go. I believe that the wage of sin is death. No one chooses how or when they die. It’s unfortunate that some people die sooner than others and more painfully. That’s what Jesus died for, but he cannot, once again, violate free will. So if his help isn’t asked for it can’t be given. I myself struggle with this concept, I’ve lost people and wondered wrestled with the thought.

Now, the steps of Loredo are (if I haven’t misspelled) steps at a church somewhere in the Southwest that is a functionable and beautifally made spiral staircase. They were made by a passing carpenter several hundred years to help a struggling church. The thing that’s exceptional is that there are no nails or clamps or glue to hold the stairs there. THere is no explanation. You may say that there is some scientific reason for this that we don’t know, but I will tell you that, as I learned in Catholic school, the Catholic church does not just call things miracles, I assure you. It does extensive testing for years and years just to make sure that there is no way that this could possibly happen otherwise. The bleeding/crying paintings in Mexico, people recieving the stigmata, etc. Yes, there have been hoaxes, but they’re few and far between. No, I would like to make clear, I do not base my religion on a series of mysterious happenings, but it is interesting.

Now here is my disclaimer. I am in no way preaching, I PROMISE! You are entitiled to your own beliefs. If you knew me you’d know that I am not the type to do that. As a Christian and a person, I know that I am not perfect nor am I infallible. I have plenty of friends that are agnostic, athiest, jewish, etc. Variety is the spice of life.

We’re all in the dark here, trying to find the light switch. I started this to hear the other side of the argument. I’m enjoying all of the input and I dig the fact that people for the most part have been very kind about dealingwith my ignorance (that’s what we’er trying to fight here isn’t it?). Keep it coming! Peace.

49

From my point of view, this happiness comes from having an answer to the Great Nagging Why. As I’ve described in other threads, I perceive that humans are driven to understand the Why behind various phenomena. Why (asks the primitive tribesman) did that guy get sick and die? Because he ate that spoiled meat. Cause and effect. Okay, why does the spoiled meat make you get sick and die? Well (sez the tribesman), we’re not too sure about that part yet; just don’t eat the meat.

There doesn’t seem to be a Why, an overarching cause and effect or whatever, about Life Itself, and this is at odds with our expectations about the world. Hence, we have to invent it. Why did the bridge collapse at that exact moment, killing everyone on it? Why did the wind blow the brick off the ledge and clock that guy and put him in a coma? Why did the cougar come down out of the hills and claw up that four-year-old girl? Why, why, why? Just random chance and dumb luck – which is hugely unsatisfying. Create a supernatural framework in which we know that there is an explanation for all of this, even if we don’t know ourselves what that explanation is (“mysterious ways,” and all that), and that restless questing part of our brains is put to bed.

Ergo, happiness. An explanation! A reason for everything! A paradigmatic structure with a place for me! No matter that, in this case, an explanation, regardless of how illogical and silly, is apparently better than no explanation.

Me, I think all of it is hogswallop. However, I do acknowledge that the purpose it serves, to give the sweaty masses one less thing to be insecure and freaked-out about, is a valid one. I myself have no need to avail myself of it.

50

Easy. At the very least, if there is a God he can’t be a just god. After all Pat Robertson hasn’t yet been cast into the lake of fire has he?

And if one of the assumed Diety’s most important qualities is questionable why should I believe the rest of them or even that He exits?

51

Lots of people died following David Koresh and Jim Jones, too. People die following Osama bin Laden. I really hope none of these gentlemen are divine.

52

So what sins do fetuses commit to warrant horrific birth defects? Or are they being punished for someone else’s sins, in which case the whole thing about personal accountability, individual salvation and free will go right out the window?

As far as the (in)famous Loretto Chapel staircase, I refer you to http://www.csicop.org/si/9811/i-files.html , in which investigator Joe Nickell observes:

[quote]
At the time the staircase was completed, one thirteen-year-old sister who was among the first to ascend to the loft, told how she and her friends were so frightened – absent a railing – that they came down on hands and knees (Albach 1965). Nevertheless, despite the very real hazard, it was not until 1887 – ten years after the staircase was completed – that an artisan named Phillip August Hesch added the railing (Loretto n.d.). No one claims it was a miracle, yet it is described as “itself a work of art” (Albach 1965; see Figure 1).

. . . Therefore, it is not surprising that people who trod the stairs reported “a small amount of vertical movement” or “a certain amount of springiness” (Albach 1965) and again “a very slight vibration as one ascends and descends rather as though the stair were a living, breathing thing” (Bullock 1978, 14).

Some people have thought the free-standing structure should have collapsed long ago, we are told, and builders and architects supposedly “never fail to marvel how it manages to stay in place,” considering that it is “without a center support” (Albach 1965). In fact, though, as one wood technologist observes, “the staircase does have a central support.” He observes that of the two wood stringers (or spiral structural members) the inner one is of such small radius that it “functions as an almost solid pole” (Easley 1997).

There is also another support – one that goes unmentioned, but which I observed when I visited the now-privately owned chapel in 1993. This is an iron brace or bracket that stabilizes the staircase by rigidly connecting the outer stringer to one of the columns that support the loft

[quote]

A pretty lousy miracle, if you ask me.

53

But an exceptionally cool staircase. I heartily recommend a visit.

Oh, and the line “If necessary, use words” is attributed to St. Francis of Asissi

54

Well, I’m just batting a thousand with my references on this thread. Well, I guess that’s what this place is for.

55

I’m waiting to see the outcome of the decades-long holy war between the factions of the IPU worshippers. Historically, wars fought over over minor differences in religious interpretation have been among the bloodiest and most entertaining.

Yet another reason for us atheists to opt out of the whole religion thing.

56

I know in my heart the IPU exists, and that’s good enough. I’ve had mystical feelings that I feel like attributing to the IPU. There are things about this world no one can explain, so the IPU becomes my explanation.

So what if Invisible and Pink seem contradictory? If it was too straightforward, you wouldn’t need faith to love the IPU.

You still don’t believe? Maybe you haven’t sincerely tried. Maybe you’re not seeking in the right places? The signs are all around us, how can you ignore the IPU?

Now, are you convinced?

57

Who were these people?

58

no, but if you are, I don’t have a problem with it.

59

You probably are athier than me; I am fairly athiless compared to many.

60

That still makes the assumption that a god is the only thing that could have made the universe. And since you seem to be saying that the universe needed a creator, what if we hold the same standard for that? What created this creator?

You should read some more history, it’s filled with people willing to die for other people or causes or beliefs, or even be tortured for them. Heck, there was a pretty big story about some people doing just that a few months ago…