# How is Mason1972's example worse than the Zimmerman shooting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614 "2018-12-05T15:42:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/221 "2018-12-07T00:51:27Z")
> [@andros](#): > > So he was neither dangerous nor a thug before the altercation? Good to know. I have no idea. Some of the things we know about his past that I’m aware of (apparent marijuana use, possession of stolen property and a “burglary tool”, vandalism, writing things like “HELL NAW FUK DA SKOOL, FUK DA LUNCH, ND MOST OF ALL FUK DA FACULTY”, etc) don’t exactly reflect well on his character, but they’re mostly crimes / mistakes of a fairly minor nature. Thug-like? Perhaps, but not, in and of themselves, what I would consider particularly “dangerous”. What does it matter if he was or was not dangerous prior to his encounter with Zimmerman? He _was_ dangerous that night, and it got him killed. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/222 "2018-12-07T01:32:08Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > it is whether making a fairly reasonable mistake of believing that an armed stranger following you in the dark was a threat means you should die. I feel like you’re assuming facts not in evidence. How do we know that Trayvon’s primary motivation for the actions that led to his tragic death was active fear for his life? That is, there was probably some key turning point where Trayvon could have acted in a way that did not lead to his death, vs the way things actually played out. (Putting aside the I-think-unlikely possibility that Zimmerman, in addition to being a jackass and a racist, was such a cold-hearted serial killer Terminator that he would have executed Trayvon absolutely no matter what with no possible escape.) At that key moment, what was Trayvon’s mindset? What was he thinking? A lot of people in this thread want to believe that it was “this guy is literally about to kill me, he is absolutely an imminent threat, it is his life or mine, I will therefore resort to violence” or “oh shit, I thought I could get away from him, but he just keeps coming!!!” or something like that. But far more likely, imho, just based on Occam’s Razor and on the fact that we have no reason to think that Trayvon was a saintly pacifistic teenage male; is that it was something like “wtf was that guy’s problem? He thinks he’s such a big man?” or “no, fuck YOU you racist fuck” or something along those lines. (Note that this is a difficult type of post to write, because by saying that there are actions Trayvon could have taken that would have not resulted in his death, it sounds like I’m laying the blame for his death squarely on his own shoulders. That is certainly not my intent. As I’ve said, I hold Zimmerman overwhelmingly responsible for Trayvon’s death, and there were certainly plenty of ways that Zimmerman could (and should) have acted that would have prevented the tragedy. I’m discussing Trayvon’s actions and motivations because the thread of argument I disagree with concerns his actions.) ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/223 "2018-12-07T01:50:56Z")
Florida’s laws have set up a rube goldberg machine where, if luck doesn’t go against you, you can chase someone down in the night and shoot them dead and get away with it because if there are no other witnesses alive then there is only your story that matters. That’s the real problem. We don’t know what really happened and that infuriates us because no one wants to trust the word of an obvious sleezeball like Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/224 "2018-12-07T02:16:52Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Florida’s laws have set up a rube goldberg machine where, if luck doesn’t go against you, you can chase someone down in the night and shoot them dead and get away with it because if there are no other witnesses alive then there is only your story that matters. That’s the real problem. … You think Zimmerman would have been acquitted even without the evidence that favored him (abrasions on Martin’s knuckles, wounds on his face and head, grass stains on his back and Martin’s knees, etc)? I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/225 "2018-12-07T02:35:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You think Zimmerman would have been acquitted even without the evidence that favored him (abrasions on Martin’s knuckles, wounds on his face and head, grass stains on his back and Martin’s knees, etc)? I don’t. I believe a scuffle probably happened. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/226 "2018-12-07T02:45:38Z")
But that scuffle was pre-meditated and planned for by Zimmerman (i.e., he had the gun). In the event of a fight, he would use the gun. It was a bit like an ambush. That’s my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/227 "2018-12-07T03:42:14Z")
I think you’ve missed the point. Zimmerman only “got away with it” because of the evidence that Martin attacked him. Absent that, the jury would not have looked so favorably on Zimmerman’s account. One cannot realistically expect to be able to just “chase someone down in the night and shoot them dead and get away with it because if there are no other witnesses alive then there is only your story that matters.” You’d also need some strong corroborating evidence that you feared for your life. Zimmerman had that, courtesy of Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/228 "2018-12-07T03:57:22Z")
I didn’t miss the point. The point is it all played out how Zimmerman had planned it. He was the instigator of the shooting, by having the gun, by not following police instructions, by being a vigilante. What is unknown is how much he racially baited Martin but you would be a fool to believe there was no racial element to the whole event. I understand you view it differently, and I can see that point of view. Legally you can carry a gun and ask questions and defend yourself. But I see it as Zimmerman being the instigator of a murder over nothing. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/229 "2018-12-07T04:44:14Z")
I am astounded at posters assuming things that are not in the evidence at all or are even contradicted by the evidence- Zimmerman ‘did not follow police instructions’, Martin was not by his father’s home, Martin somehow saw the concealed pistol but did not mention that fact over the phone. I find it plausible that Martin was scoping out possible burglary targets, as he had been found with suspicious items in Miami. I also have not heard of other Black residents of the apartment complex say Zimmerman had been harassing or following them because of their race. And insisting that another poster provide a motive for Martin attacking Zimmerman should realize there is no evidence or testimony that could answer that. Zimmerman has shown since the tragedy that he is not particularly smart nor nice. This is not evidence of criminal actions in this case. Opinions that Zimmerman committed murder or manslaughter are not based on the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/230 "2018-12-07T04:48:16Z")
Does [who Zimmerman is](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/zimmerman-skittles-signing/) have any bearing on how we feel about his actions that night? Because he sure seems like a detestable kind of guy. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/231 "2018-12-07T05:16:42Z")
My reaction to an armed person following me around on foot would likely be similar to someone exhibiting road rage towards me, which has happened a few times in my life: Get the hell away from them as quickly as possible using every evasion technique I can think of until I shook them. If that was impossible i would call the cops and inform them of the situation. The LAST thing I would do is stop, get out of my car, and see happens next. I might get shot, as that has been the documented end result of multiple road rage incidents. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/232 "2018-12-07T05:52:55Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > I find it plausible that Martin was scoping out possible burglary targets, as he had been found with suspicious items in Miami. I also have not heard of other Black residents of the apartment complex say Zimmerman had been harassing or following them because of their race. You can’t complain about a lack of evidence and then bring up this crap. Not only is there no evidence that any of this was happening, but no one even tried to argue it. And we have the fucking phone call he was on, where he was talking, and we know that he was currently staying in the area. Not even Zimmerman tried this excuse. What made Marten seem suspicious to him were 3 other black people who had been up to something bad previously, and possibly the fact he had his hoodie up. Nothing about any behaviors showing he was stalking anything. His claim was that he was suspicious because he hadn’t ever seen him in the area before. For someone complaining about speculation, you sure seem to have no problem with it yourself. That said, what I’m saying at least isn’t speculation. He clearly felt threatened because we could hear it in the phone call before he drops it. He clearly feels threatened by Zimmerman following him. From there, we know the conflict escalated. We don’t know what precipitated Martin’s attempt to beat up Zimmerman, exactly. But we do know what started the entire confrontation: Zimmerman choosing to follow Martin. And, I allege, following someone is threatening. Throw in that the guy carries a gun and has a hot temper (as shown by other encounters), and it become likely that Zimmerman escalated the encounter. Because Trayvon Martin is dead, we can’t know if he was just standing his ground against Zimmerman. And we do know that Zimmerman should have never been following Martin in the first place. So it is definitely bad gun news, not an example of a good guy with a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/233 "2018-12-07T06:37:51Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > From my cite: > > “before hearing her friend shout: “Get off! Get off!”, she said.” Watch or read the trial footage, and the follow up questions to that. > [@](#): > > Yes because he’s dead, so that’s pretty convenient for Zimmerman. He’d still have the benefit of the doubt if Martin was alive. Let’s make something very clear here. The victim in this case is George Zimmerman, who was brutally assaulted and had to defend himself. What is happening when people try to deny his right to self defence, his right to the presumption of innocence, and so is victim blaming, nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/234 "2018-12-07T06:46:41Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Florida’s laws have set up a rube goldberg machine where, if luck doesn’t go against you, you can chase someone down in the night and shoot them dead and get away with it because if there are no other witnesses alive then there is only your story that matters. That’s the real problem. We don’t know what really happened and that infuriates us because no one wants to trust the word of an obvious sleezeball like Zimmerman. That’s not a problem, it’s a necessary consequence of the presumption of innocence. Do you really not think victims of crime who are forced to defend themselves deserve that presumption? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/235 "2018-12-07T06:51:29Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, I allege, following someone is threatening. It’s not a threat of imminent harm, so mot one you’re allowed to take violent action against. And, it’s worth noting here, that following someone is in almost all circumstances entirely legal. And I would allege, following an unknown person in a private place to find out what they’re up to is not only legal but moral. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/236 "2018-12-07T11:15:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Which question? About Martin’s history? I think it unlikely that his encounter with Zimmerman was the first time Martin had ever thrown a punch, And yet another piece of unsubstantiated character assassination. Are you ever going to explain why you left out significant details from the phonecall in your original narrative of events? > [@](#): > > but even if it was, “this is the first time we have a record of that he ever beat the shit out of someone” does not mean he gets a pass for it. He was still on top of Zimmerman, bashing his head on the concrete, when he was shot. That makes the shooting justified. Unless he was defending himself. Of course, if Martin had had a gun he could have just shot Zimmerman first and claimed he was standing his ground (which I’m sure Florida courts consider an entirely valid argument when the perpetrator is a young black male). > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t feel the need to make “a convincing argument as to why”. I don’t care nearly as much _why_ he attacked Zimmerman as that he _did_. You seem to think his motive is the make-or-break point here. It’s largely irrelevant in my eyes. Unless there’s some evidence that he did so in response to an imminent threat (and there’s not) then it was unjustified. Right. So Martin’s motive for attacking Zimmerman doesn’t matter but Zimmerman’s motive for attacking Martin does. Got it. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If you want to focus on the morality of it, the moral of this story is “don’t punch people in the face and bash their head into concrete. It might get you killed (and your killer off scot-free)” Of course, if you don’t attack the aggressive and armed person who followed you home and then confronted you, you might still be dead. > [@](#): > > Another moral of the story could be "don’t follow suspicious people. It could get you into a heap of trouble and cause major repercussions throughout the rest of your life (nutjob trying to murder you, scrutiny of your past and future decisions, etc) even if you are fortunate enough to survive. My heart bleeds for him. As did Martin’s. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I have no idea. Some of the things we know about his past that I’m aware of (apparent marijuana use, possession of stolen property and a “burglary tool”, vandalism, writing things like “HELL NAW FUK DA SKOOL, FUK DA LUNCH, ND MOST OF ALL FUK DA FACULTY”, etc) don’t exactly reflect well on his character, but they’re mostly crimes / mistakes of a fairly minor nature. Thug-like? Perhaps, but not, in and of themselves, what I would consider particularly “dangerous”. What does it matter if he was or was not dangerous prior to his encounter with Zimmerman? He _was_ dangerous that night, and it got him killed. Zimmerman was “dangerous that night” too. And it got Martin killed. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I feel like you’re assuming facts not in evidence. How do we know that Trayvon’s primary motivation for the actions that led to his tragic death was active fear for his life? > > That is, there was probably some key turning point where Trayvon could have acted in a way that did not lead to his death, vs the way things actually played out. (Putting aside the I-think-unlikely possibility that Zimmerman, in addition to being a jackass and a racist, was such a cold-hearted serial killer Terminator that he would have executed Trayvon absolutely no matter what with no possible escape.) At that key moment, what was Trayvon’s mindset? What was he thinking? > > A lot of people in this thread want to believe that it was “this guy is literally about to kill me, he is absolutely an imminent threat, it is his life or mine, I will therefore resort to violence” or “oh shit, I thought I could get away from him, but he just keeps coming!!!” or something like that. > > But far more likely, imho, just based on Occam’s Razor and on the fact that we have no reason to think that Trayvon was a saintly pacifistic teenage male; is that it was something like “wtf was that guy’s problem? He thinks he’s such a big man?” or “no, fuck YOU you racist fuck” or something along those lines. Literally nobody thinks Martin was a “saintly pacifistic teenage male”. But your version ignores the phonecall evidence, in which he was described as scared and merely demands to know why Zimmerman is following him rather than engaging in the sort of puffery you describe. So Occam’s Razor - and the available evidence - supports the “oh shit, I thought I could get away from him, but he just keeps coming!!!” narratives more than the “wtf was that guy’s problem? He thinks he’s such a big man?” or “no, fuck YOU you racist fuck” ones. Being a teenaged delinquent does not mean you also can’t be genuinely fearful for your life; indeed, it likely increases the probability. > [@Steophan](#): > > That’s not a problem, it’s a necessary consequence of the presumption of innocence. Do you really not think victims of crime who are forced to defend themselves deserve that presumption? Are you applying that to Martin as well? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/237 "2018-12-07T11:16:20Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You can’t complain about a lack of evidence and then bring up this crap. Not only is there no evidence that any of this was happening, but no one even tried to argue it. And we have the fucking phone call he was on, where he was talking, and we know that he was currently staying in the area. > > Not even Zimmerman tried this excuse. What made Marten seem suspicious to him were 3 other black people who had been up to something bad previously, and possibly the fact he had his hoodie up. Nothing about any behaviors showing he was stalking anything. His claim was that he was suspicious because he hadn’t ever seen him in the area before. > > For someone complaining about speculation, you sure seem to have no problem with it yourself. > That said, what I’m saying at least isn’t speculation. He clearly felt threatened because we could hear it in the phone call before he drops it. He clearly feels threatened by Zimmerman following him. > > From there, we know the conflict escalated. We don’t know what precipitated Martin’s attempt to beat up Zimmerman, exactly. But we do know what started the entire confrontation: Zimmerman choosing to follow Martin. > > And, I allege, following someone is threatening. Throw in that the guy carries a gun and has a hot temper (as shown by other encounters), and it become likely that Zimmerman escalated the encounter. > > Because Trayvon Martin is dead, we can’t know if he was just standing his ground against Zimmerman. And we do know that Zimmerman should have never been following Martin in the first place. > > So it is definitely bad gun news, not an example of a good guy with a gun. We most certainly do not “have the fucking phone call he was on” and we can’t “hear” shit on it. We have Dee Dee’s barely-intelligible recounting of the phone call, with her own (not-unbiased) feelings, suppositions, and emotions layered on top. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/238 "2018-12-07T12:50:36Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I feel like you’re assuming facts not in evidence. How do we know that Trayvon’s primary motivation for the actions that led to his tragic death was active fear for his life? I feel like you are assuming facts not in evidence - what evidence is there that Zimmerman was almost certainly racist? > [@](#): > > That is, there was probably some key turning point where Trayvon could have acted in a way that did not lead to his death, vs the way things actually played out. There was. Martin could have stepped into his own living room, instead of going back and seeking out Zimmerman and attacking him. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > IMHO, Martin was scared of this guy prowling his neighborhood and following him at night. He was concerned for not only his own, but also his family’s safety. If Martin was so scared, why did he go back and seek Zimmerman out? > [@](#): > > I see no reason why he would not have seen that Zimmerman was armed, and I see no reason why Zimmerman would not have shown off that he was armed while confronting Martin. There is no evidence of this. > [@](#): > > What happened, we can never really know, as we only have the word of someone who has motivation to make things in as good a light as possible for himself. This is a false statement. We have considerable evidence apart from Zimmerman’s word. > [@](#): > > I ask of HD and Shodan, if someone is following you, and you see that they are armed, what do _you_ do? Then after you have come up with the scenario of what a white middle age middle class man would do, then consider what you would do it you were black, of a more modest income, 17 year old. There is no evidence that Martin knew Zimmerman was armed, and there is circumstantial evidence that he did not. If I were being followed, and I was right by a place of safety, and had lost sight of the person following me, I would step into my own living room. I see no reason why that should be any different if I were black, 17 years old, or did not have a job. Someone is being followed. They are close to a place of safety. They have lost contact with their follower. If I am an old white guy, I step into my own living room; if I am a 17 year old black kid, I go back and start a fight. This makes sense to you? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/239 "2018-12-07T12:51:50Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > … Are you ever going to explain why you left out significant details from the phonecall in your original narrative of events? … I’m the one that provided the link to the transcript so people could read the whole testimony if they wanted. I quoted the bits that were relevant to the point I was making. I’m certainly not going to quote the whole thing, so yes, that necessitates leaving most of it out. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone, and I don’t understand why you’re having such a hard time grasping the concept. > [@Gyrate](#): > > … Unless he was defending himself. Of course, if Martin had had a gun he could have just shot Zimmerman first and claimed he was standing his ground (which I’m sure Florida courts consider an entirely valid argument when the perpetrator is a young black male). … If he had shot Zimmerman, or succeeded in bashing his head into the concrete until Zimmerman was dead / maimed, he would have had to explain why he felt he was threatened with an imminent use of unlawful force. What would he have said? “He followed me, and asked me what I was doing”? “He had a gun”? Neither of those is indicative of an imminent use of unlawful force. > [@Gyrate](#): > > … Right. So Martin’s motive for attacking Zimmerman doesn’t matter but Zimmerman’s motive for attacking Martin does. Got it. … As I said, if there was some evidence that Martin’s attack on Zimmerman was in response to an imminent use of unlawful force, that would be something, but there is not such evidence. > [@Gyrate](#): > > … Of course, if you don’t attack the aggressive and armed person who followed you home and then confronted you, you might still be dead. … I suppose in the wide world of possibilities, it’s _possible_ that Zimmerman intended to murder Martin regardless of what he did. That seems extremely unlikely to me, but we don’t yet have the technology to explore alternate timelines where Martin did not provide Zimmerman a convenient justification for his use of force. I guess we’ll never know for certain, but I trust that most people who think it over will conclude, as I have, that if Zimmerman intended to murder Martin even if he were running away / surrendering, he probably wouldn’t start that project by requesting the police be sent to his location. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/240 "2018-12-07T13:05:59Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And yet another piece of unsubstantiated character assassination. … BTW, what are you talking about “unsubstantiated”? [Here is a Miami Herald article titled “Weed, fights and guns: Trayvon Martin’s text messages released”](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/trayvon-martin/article1951821.html). It starts with this: > [@](#): > > In the months and days before his shooting death, Trayvon Martin was getting into fights, getting high on marijuana, getting suspended from school and talking with friends about getting a gun, according to cellphone text messages that defense lawyers for shooter George Zimmerman released Thursday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614.md?page=13)