# How is Mason1972's example worse than the Zimmerman shooting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614 "2018-12-05T15:42:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/241 "2018-12-07T13:54:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If I were being followed, and I was right by a place of safety, and had lost sight of the person following me, I would step into my own living room. I see no reason why that should be any different if I were black, 17 years old, or did not have a job. > > Someone is being followed. They are close to a place of safety. They have lost contact with their follower. If I am an old white guy, I step into my own living room; if I am a 17 year old black kid, I go back and start a fight. This makes sense to you? You accuse others of assuming facts not in evidence. Martin was shot about 200’ from his door, which does not suggest that he went back to confront Zimmerman. His girlfriend’s testimony about the conversation is unreliable, so to say that he went back is an unfounded assumption. If I was being followed at night, there is a fair chance that I would pause before approaching my door, to determine where my stalker was. Then, why did he not hie into the safe place? What he knew about his stalker and his stalker’s intentions is unclear. The bird’s nest instinct does exist in humans to some extent: if I perceive a potential threat, leading that threat right to where I live is often not the best choice – a choice that one must make in the moment. So claiming that Martin backtracked is not only an unfounded assumption, if it were true, it would be entirely understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/242 "2018-12-07T14:07:09Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > You accuse others of assuming facts not in evidence. Martin was shot about 200’ from his door, which does not suggest that he went back to confront Zimmerman. His girlfriend’s testimony about the conversation is unreliable, so to say that he went back is an unfounded assumption. If I was being followed at night, there is a fair chance that I would pause before approaching my door, to determine where my stalker was. > > Then, why did he not hie into the safe place? What he knew about his stalker and his stalker’s intentions is unclear. The bird’s nest instinct does exist in humans to some extent: if I perceive a potential threat, leading that threat right to where I live is often not the best choice – a choice that one must make in the moment. > > So claiming that Martin backtracked is not only an unfounded assumption, if it were true, it would be entirely understandable. We’ve done this already. Based on where the fight happened, AND Dee Dee’s testimony, AND Zimmerman’s statements, the balance of the available evidence indicates that Martin and Zimmerman lost sight of each other, Martin was right by his house, Zimmerman was looking for a street address or house number to be able to give a precise location so he could meet up with the police, and Martin went back and confronted and attacked Zimmerman. You don’t have to worry about leading someone to your nest if they can’t see you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/243 "2018-12-07T14:15:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s not a problem, it’s a necessary consequence of the presumption of innocence. Do you really not think victims of crime who are forced to defend themselves deserve that presumption? You are talking in terms of generalities, I’m talking about this particular case. I won’t be distracted by your attempt to pin me with something I’ve never said. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/244 "2018-12-07T15:35:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I already responded: Okay, so you say that there are too many variables for you to say how you would respond in Martin’s situation. Yet, you say you know enough about the case to say exactly why Martin did what you say he did. > [@](#): > > The “reasonable mistake” you describe isn’t what got Martin killed. It was his decision to attack Zimmerman. One might “make a fairly reasonably mistake of believing that an armed stranger following you in the dark was a threat” and choose to respond in a different manner: calling the police oneself, running away, hiding, calling out for help, trying to talk to the supposed-threat to see if you might be able to calm them down (or at least stall for time), etc. The response he chose (punching Zimmerman in the face, climbing on top of him, and bashing his head on the concrete) is what got him killed. And why do you think he made that decision? He was just a thug looking to beat someone up that night, or that he was concerned for his safety from this stranger who was following him at night? It was Zimmerman’s decision to pursue Martin through a neighborhood in the dark that got Martin killed. Unfortunately, Martin did not have perfect knowledge of why this person was following him in the dark. You seem to think that there is no way that he could have possibly perceived this as a threat, but have no problem with Zimmerman considering Martin to be suspicious because he as walking down the street. Double standard much? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/245 "2018-12-07T15:41:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We’ve done this already. Based on where the fight happened, AND Dee Dee’s testimony, AND Zimmerman’s statements, the balance of the available evidence indicates that Martin and Zimmerman lost sight of each other, Martin was right by his house, Zimmerman was looking for a street address or house number to be able to give a precise location so he could meet up with the police, and Martin went back and confronted and attacked Zimmerman. We’ve been over this already that you have made these unsupported assertions, even though they contradict facts. In any case, if you claim that Zimmerman was looking for a street address or house number, why was he not on the street, where street addresses and house numbers are, and instead, behind the houses, where street addresses and house numbers are not? If he were looking to meet up with the police, then why was he not on the street, where the police would be coming, and instead, behind the houses, where they would not? Sounds to me like he was following and looking for Martin. No other explanation as to why he was following Martin behind houses makes any sense. And as he was actively looking for Martin, your assertion that it was Martin that then circled back to confront Zimmerman makes even less. You know, this could have turned into a controversial encounters post. Zimmerman calls the cops on some kid walking down the street, the cops show up, and shoot the guy acting suspicious, the armed guy going around behind houses and following residents. > [@](#): > > You don’t have to worry about leading someone to your nest if they can’t see you. And because you can’t see them, that means that they can’t see you, right? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/246 "2018-12-07T15:45:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We’ve done this already. apparently, incorrectly > [@](#): > > … Zimmerman was looking for a street address or house number to be able to give a precise location … The encounter took place in the area _between the units_. Explain how Zimmerman was looking for an address on the back sides of the buildings. > [@](#): > > … evidence indicates that Martin and Zimmerman lost sight of each other … You don’t have to worry about leading someone to your nest if they can’t see you. They lost sight of _each other_: explain how Martin could know that Zimmerman could not see him if he could not see Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/247 "2018-12-07T16:12:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If Martin was so scared, why did he go back and seek Zimmerman out? Simple. He didn’t. > [@Shodan](#): > > We’ve done this already. Based on where the fight happened, AND Dee Dee’s testimony, AND Zimmerman’s statements, the balance of the available evidence indicates that Martin and Zimmerman lost sight of each other, Martin was right by his house, Zimmerman was looking for a street address or house number to be able to give a precise location so he could meet up with the police, and Martin went back and confronted and attacked Zimmerman. > > You don’t have to worry about leading someone to your nest if they can’t see you. > > Regards, > Shodan Except that Dee Dee’s testimony also says that after they lost sight of each other Zimmerman found Martin again and came right up close to him, not that Martin went back to find him. Zimmerman could see him just fine. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m the one that provided the link to the transcript so people could read the whole testimony if they wanted. I quoted the bits that were relevant to the point I was making. I’m certainly not going to quote the whole thing, so yes, that necessitates leaving most of it out. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone, and I don’t understand why you’re having such a hard time grasping the concept. No, I understand that you excluded the bits that contradicted your chosen narrative. I have no difficulty in grasping that. > [@](#): > > If he had shot Zimmerman, or succeeded in bashing his head into the concrete until Zimmerman was dead / maimed, he would have had to explain why he felt he was threatened with an imminent use of unlawful force. What would he have said? “He followed me, and asked me what I was doing”? “He had a gun”? Neither of those is indicative of an imminent use of unlawful force. How about “He followed me home, confronted me angrily and put his hand on his weapon”? That’s more than enough excuse for the police to shoot people; in fact often they don’t even have to touch the weapon to get shot. And we know Zimmerman followed and confronted Martin angrily and that he had a weapon, and that in other instances he waved a gun at other people in anger. It’s not a remotely implausible scenario. > [@](#): > > As I said, if there was some evidence that Martin’s attack on Zimmerman was in response to an imminent use of unlawful force, that would be something, but there is not such evidence. Would there? What would that evidence look like? Bear in mind that we only have Zimmerman’s account of the altercation itself. > [@](#): > > I suppose in the wide world of possibilities, it’s _possible_ that Zimmerman intended to murder Martin regardless of what he did. That seems extremely unlikely to me, but we don’t yet have the technology to explore alternate timelines where Martin did not provide Zimmerman a convenient justification for his use of force. I guess we’ll never know for certain, but I trust that most people who think it over will conclude, as I have, that if Zimmerman intended to murder Martin even if he were running away / surrendering, he probably wouldn’t start that project by requesting the police be sent to his location. YMMV. Is anyone asserting that Zimmerman’s original intent was to seek out and murder Martin? Zimmerman’s intent was likely to confront Martin, and took the gun along for his own protection. Zimmerman then confronted Martin and the whole thing escalated. The question is whether Martin had sufficient reason to believe that Zimmerman was an imminent threat to attack him in self-defense. You say he didn’t. I say it is entirely plausible that he did, particularly as alternative theories presented are considerably less so. And sure, maybe Martin flew off the handle and attacked Zimmerman just for following him and for being a dick. But neither you nor **Shodan** are making that case by changing the story of what we do know happened. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/248 "2018-12-07T16:24:29Z")
Ultimately, if Zimmerman has stayed in his vehicle, we would not be having this conversation. No matter who through the first punch, Zimmerman’s decision to play hero is what set everything in motion. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/249 "2018-12-07T16:31:02Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > How about “He followed me home, confronted me angrily and put his hand on his weapon”? From what I have read, Zimmerman did confront Martin angrily _per se_. Martin demanded to know why Zimmerman was following him (angrily, we would assume). Zimmerman did not answer (e.g., “_I’m doing neighborhood watch and you look unfamiliar_”), he asked Martin what he was doing there. So one cannot literally say he confronted him angrily, just that he was very undiplomatic. As far as the gun goes, some testimony seems to indicate that Martin was not aware of it until moments before he was shot. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/250 "2018-12-07T16:38:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Are you applying that to Martin as well? Martin is not accused of any crime, so it’s irrelevant. But I certainly don’t think someone who’s dead should be posthumously convicted of a crime, so to the extent it matters, of course I do. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/251 "2018-12-07T16:39:30Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > Ultimately, if Zimmerman has stayed in his vehicle, we would not be having this conversation. > > No matter who through the first punch, Zimmerman’s decision to play hero is what set everything in motion. That’s correct, but so what? Zimmerman was fully within his rights to “play hero”, as you put it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/252 "2018-12-07T16:41:26Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > The encounter took place in the area _between the units_. Explain how Zimmerman was looking for an address on the back sides of the buildings. There weren’t any addresses on the back sides. That’s why Zimmerman went between the houses to go to the other side and look for a sign. It was at that point, as Zimmerman was coming back, that Martin also came between the units, confronted him, and there the fight took place. > [@](#): > > They lost sight of _each other_: explain how Martin could know that Zimmerman could not see him if he could not see Zimmerman. He couldn’t know it for certain. But again, this is an indication that Martin was not frightened. He made sure, by doubling back, that Zimmerman could see him. And then attacked him. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Simple. He didn’t. The evidence indicates that he did. Look at the relative positions of Martin’s house, where Zimmerman first spotted him, and where the fight took place. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/253 "2018-12-07T17:53:19Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > Ultimately, if Zimmerman has stayed in his vehicle, we would not be having this conversation. > > No matter who through the first punch, Zimmerman’s decision to play hero is what set everything in motion. Ultimately if Martin’s mother had not kicked him out of the house, none of this would have happened. However, this does not mean that it is his mother’s fault. The fault lies with the person who did the violence. Martin going to get fruit juice and Skittles was reasonable, Zimmerman noticing a stranger acting suspicious is reasonable, Zimmerman following the suspicious stranger was reasonable, Martin asking why Zimmerman was following was reasonable, Zimmerman asking what Martin was doing in the neighborhood was reasonable. What is unreasonable was Martin punching Zimmerman and bashing his head against the concrete. Zimmerman then shooting someone attempting to injure or kill him was reasonable. The only unreasonable course of action was Martin attacking Zimmerman and therefore the fault lies entirely with Martin. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/254 "2018-12-07T19:47:58Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Okay, so you say that there are too many variables for you to say how you would respond in Martin’s situation. Earlier you did not ask me about “Martin’s situation”. You said this: > [@k9bfriender](#): > > … I ask of HD and Shodan, if someone is following you, and you see that they are armed, what do _you_ do? … We don’t have any evidence that Martin knew Zimmerman was armed prior to their physical altercation. But, since you seem interested in how I would have responded if I found myself in “Martin’s situation”: I would not have run. I would have walked away from the stranger eyeing me and headed towards my home, probably keeping a watchful on him. If you want to fast forward past the point where Martin decided to run, then I would have gone home and gone inside. If you want to skip past that decision point, to where Martin and Zimmerman found themselves face-to-face, then I might have asked him why he was following me but I would _not_ have punched him in the face and smashed his head on the concrete. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > … Yet, you say you know enough about the case to say exactly why Martin did what you say he did. … Wrong! I have pointedly NOT said that I “know enough about the case to say exactly why Martin did what \* say he did”. Did you seriously miss all the belly-aching because I wouldn’t speculate on his motive? People were right sore about it precisely because I did NOT “say \* know enough about the case to say exactly why Martin did what \* say he did”. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > … And why do you think he made that decision? … Once again, I don’t know why he did it. I don’t see any benefit in speculating without further information either. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/255 "2018-12-07T19:58:20Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > … Would there? What would that evidence look like? Bear in mind that we only have Zimmerman’s account of the altercation itself. … We don’t “only have Zimmerman’s account of the altercation”. Dee Dee heard the beginning of it. If she had heard Martin say something like “Oh shit, he’s got a gun and I think he’s going to shoot me” or “please don’t shoot me man” or something like that, THAT would be evidence that Martin was facing an imminent use of unlawful force. If the witness that saw the scuffle, instead of seeing Martin on top of Zimmerman pounding his head into the concrete, had seen Zimmerman pointing his gun at Martin, that too could have been evidence that Martin was facing an imminent use of unlawful force. If it were Martin, not Zimmerman, that had a bloody nose, that might be evidence that he was facing an imminent use of unlawful force. Those are just a few examples. > [@Gyrate](#): > > … Is anyone asserting that Zimmerman’s original intent was to seek out and murder Martin? … That’s what I understood this post to mean: > [@Isamu](#): > > But that scuffle was pre-meditated and planned for by Zimmerman (i.e., he had the gun). In the event of a fight, he would use the gun. It was a bit like an ambush. That’s my opinion. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/256 "2018-12-08T00:37:28Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You can’t complain about a lack of evidence and then bring up this crap. Not only is there no evidence that any of this was happening, but no one even tried to argue it. And we have the fucking phone call he was on, where he was talking, and we know that he was currently staying in the area. > > Not even Zimmerman tried this excuse. What made Marten seem suspicious to him were 3 other black people who had been up to something bad previously, and possibly the fact he had his hoodie up. Nothing about any behaviors showing he was stalking anything. His claim was that he was suspicious because he hadn’t ever seen him in the area before. > > For someone complaining about speculation, you sure seem to have no problem with it yourself. > That said, what I’m saying at least isn’t speculation. He clearly felt threatened because we could hear it in the phone call before he drops it. He clearly feels threatened by Zimmerman following him. > > From there, we know the conflict escalated. We don’t know what precipitated Martin’s attempt to beat up Zimmerman, exactly. But we do know what started the entire confrontation: Zimmerman choosing to follow Martin. > > And, I allege, following someone is threatening. Throw in that the guy carries a gun and has a hot temper (as shown by other encounters), and it become likely that Zimmerman escalated the encounter. > > Because Trayvon Martin is dead, we can’t know if he was just standing his ground against Zimmerman. And we do know that Zimmerman should have never been following Martin in the first place. > > So it is definitely bad gun news, not an example of a good guy with a gun. What? This is the reason Zimmerman chose to follow and called the police in the first place. If Martin was just walking home, like other residents did, there likely would have been no problem. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/257 "2018-12-08T00:54:42Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > What? This is the reason Zimmerman chose to follow and called the police in the first place. If Martin was just walking home, like other residents did, there likely would have been no problem. In what way was he not just walking home? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/258 "2018-12-08T01:10:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I feel like you are assuming facts not in evidence - what evidence is there that Zimmerman was almost certainly racist? calling Obama a babboon on Twitter, confederate flag as his profile pic. But you’re gonna ignore this post just like youj ignored this evidence the last few times I brought it up. > [@](#): > > There was. Martin could have stepped into his own living room, instead of going back and I know reading comprehension is hard, but YOU have no evidence of THIS. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/259 "2018-12-08T01:19:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > … I know reading comprehension is hard, but YOU have no evidence of THIS. Sure there’s evidence of it. Dee Dee’s testimony was that he said he was “right by” his father’s fiancee’s house. You may want to argue for a strained / stretched-to-the-breaking-point-of-credulity definition of “right by”, but the rest of us don’t have to, and probably won’t, buy into it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/260 "2018-12-08T01:36:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We’ve done this already. Based on where the fight happened, AND Dee Dee’s testimony, AND Zimmerman’s statements, the balance of the available evidence indicates that Martin and Zimmerman lost sight of each other, Martin was right by his house, Zimmerman was looking for a street address or house number to be able to give a precise location so he could meet up with the police, and Martin went back and confronted and attacked Zimmerman. > > You don’t have to worry about leading someone to your nest if they can’t see you. > > Regards, > Shodan No, they don’t. You keep claiming they do, but the vast majority of people in this thread don’t read it that way. So either you’re some super persecuted genius, or you’re WRONG. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614.md?page=14)