# How is Mason1972's example worse than the Zimmerman shooting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614 "2018-12-05T15:42:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/321 "2018-12-09T17:48:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You are factually wrong that Zimmerman chased Martin, or that he in any way prevented him from going to his father’s home. These are not facts that are in doubt, and yet you ignore them, so your whole argument is invalid. Read the goddamn [affidavit](https://www.businessinsider.com/affidavit-says-george-zimmerman-chased-trayvon-martin-2012-4) against Zimmerman. Him chasing after Martin factored into probable cause. > [@](#): > > Your belief in your scenario requires you to believe some things that are known to be false, and also many things for which there are no evidence. Just to pick one thing you claimed, what is your evidence that Martin was “pursued unrelentingly” by Zimmerman? It’s counter to the evidence given by both Zimmerman and Deedee, as well as what Zimmerman said whilst he was on the phone to the police. Read the goddamn affidavit. > [@](#): > > That’s ignoring the fact that following someone and asking them what they are doing is not, in fact, a threat - even if you fail or refuse to say why you are doing it. Why am I not surprised that this sounds like the [narcissist prayer](https://www.redbubble.com/people/unixorn/works/28953589-the-narcissists-prayer) that Trump and his worshipers follow? > [@](#): > > You are ignorant of the basic facts of this case… Read the goddamn affidavit already. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/322 "2018-12-09T21:16:19Z")
[Here is a better link for the affidavit](https://www.scribd.com/doc/89112477/Affidavit-of-Probable-Cause-to-charge-George-Zimmerman-with-second-degree-murder?campaign=SkimbitLtd&ad_group=35871X943606X087b55541c4089cb64d3d9d49be8c1a8&keyword=660149026&source=hp_affiliate&medium=affiliate). It’s got a fair bit of editorializing in it, which is exactly what you’d expect from a document made to argue the prosecutor’s side of the case. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/323 "2018-12-09T22:20:29Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Read the goddamn affidavit. You mean the one that was disproven at the trial? Fine, I can read it, but I’m not sure what you expect me to learn. You did either watch the trial or read transcripts of it, right? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/324 "2018-12-09T22:36:18Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I didn’t say that. I said Zimmerman claimed Martin was suffocating him at the same time the screaming occurred. And your cite shows that this is false - Zimmerman did not claim that Martin was suffocating him at the same time that he was screaming. > [@](#): > > In case it’s not clear to you, I think Zimmerman was bald-faced lying. Yes, I know that is what you think. But what you allege that Zimmerman said is other than what he said, so you think Zimmerman is lying because you think he said something he didn’t say. > [@](#): > > It was the kid who was screaming his head off, just as you would expect someone to do if they’d been grabbed and possibly held at gunpoint by a hostile stranger. But the balance of the evidence indicates that it was Zimmerman who was screaming, just as you would expect someone to do when they have been attacked, and are having their head bashed on the ground. I think we have already established that it is not reasonable to think that Zimmerman was holding Martin at gunpoint, so that part is probably not true. And most people who are bashing someone else’s head on the ground do not typically scream for help. So what you think is not backed up by any evidence. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/325 "2018-12-10T05:11:57Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > You’ve clearly never been in a real world fist fight. Go visit [Worldstarhiphop: Breaking News | Music Videos | Entertainment News | Hip Hop News](http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/) to see how a fight really transpires. I’ve been in a few, and I’ve seen a few. I have yet to see anyone intent on trying to suckerpunch someone from behind start pit bu first asking the intended victim a question. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/326 "2018-12-10T05:40:30Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I’ve been in a few, and I’ve seen a few. I have yet to see anyone intent on trying to suckerpunch someone from behind start pit bu first asking the intended victim a question. What made you think the first punch came “from behind” or was ever intended to? [Zimmerman’s statement to the police](http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/371112-george-zimmermans-written-statement-to-police.html) said “the suspect punched me in the face”. He had injuries consistent with this claim too. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/327 "2018-12-10T14:45:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And your cite shows that this is false - Zimmerman did not claim that Martin was suffocating him at the same time that he was screaming. > [@Steophan](#): > > You mean the one that was disproven at the trial? The above statements underscore the degree to which Zimmerman supporters must mire themselves in willful obtuseness to go on believing this guy was a victim. I swear Zimmerman could confess on live TV to killing Martin in cold blood and they will still insist this kid deserved what happened to him. This is America. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/328 "2018-12-10T14:57:24Z")
Yes, our obsession with the facts, rather than mimicking your emotional response, is truly damning. Woe is us. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/329 "2018-12-10T15:31:57Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Read the goddamn affidavit already. You mean the affidavit that says it does not contain all the pertinent facts and evidence in the case? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/330 "2018-12-10T15:55:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You mean the affidavit that says it does not contain all the pertinent facts and evidence in the case? > > Regards, > Shodan Yup, and if you’re not convinced by that, you should just listen to the prosecutor’s opening statement at trial. It’s positively _damning_. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/331 "2018-12-10T16:55:28Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I swear Zimmerman could confess on live TV to killing Martin in cold blood and they will still insist this kid deserved what happened to him. If something _completely different to what actually happened_, happened, the I would adjust my views accordingly. Please look at what you’re actually saying in your posts, they are all full of “what if’s”. If a series of events for which we had no evidence occurred, then I might consider Zimmerman guilty. But for now, I will continue to believe that what happened is what the evidence shows, not what might have happened if your fantasies were true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614.md?page=16)