# How is Mason1972's example worse than the Zimmerman shooting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614 "2018-12-05T15:42:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/21 "2018-12-05T18:09:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There are several problems with your theory. First off, he wasn’t “being pursued” by Zimmerman anymore. He’d lost him, and was home. He then chose to go back and start a fight, which he lost. > > Secondly, “stand your ground”, and use of force in self defense in general, is only a legal option for someone who (in Florida statute) “[reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against such other’s imminent use of unlawful force.](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.012.html)” You’ve got no evidence that Martin was threatening “imminent use of unlawful force”. I think you mean that we have no evidence that ZIMMERMAN was threatening “imminent use of unlawful force”, and you’d be wrong. We do have evidence of that. The fact that he stalked a kid with a gun on some sort of vigilante crusade is pretty strong evidence of his state of mind. So does the fact that he pursued Martin after being told that the police will handle it. Any reasonable person being pursued by such a maniac _should_ be scared for his life. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/22 "2018-12-05T18:14:59Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The homeowner in this case was armed, **and ignoring police instructions**. While he did this because he was mostly deaf, the police had no way of knowing this. I’ll quibble with the bolded wording: Mr. Black was not ignoring police instructions. “Ignoring” is a purposeful act that presumes both knowledge and intent; Mr. Black was ignorant of the police orders because he could not hear them (as you noted); he was not reacting to them. The fact that police characterize it as “ignoring” is itself purposeful, as it helps them build the narrative that they want. Think how different the headline would be if it read “Police shoot man who does not react to their shouts”, which is what really happened. [And it isn’t the first time](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/no-charges-against-seattle-officer-who-shot-woodcarver/) ([2011 case that drew no charges](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt1mFQG3tJg)). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/23 "2018-12-05T18:17:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > … This happened AFTER Zimmerman stalked him, then pulled a gun on him. Stalking and brandishing a weapon often fall afoul of any of a number of laws, although I don’t know if Florida has any of those and I don’t frankly care enough to look it up. Point is – put yourself in Trayvon’s situation. You’re walking down the street at night when a strange man starts stalking you, then corners you and pulls out a gun. In what possible world would any action you take against this madman NOT self defense? … You are wrong. Martin was not “cornered” by Zimmerman. And there’s no evidence that Zimmerman “pulled out a gun” until after Martin had attacked Zimmerman. > [@Babale](#): > > … then I’ll call what Zimmerman did murder. … You can call it whatever you like, it doesn’t make your mislabeling any less wrong. > [@Babale](#): > > …Are you honestly telling me that you wouldn’t fear for your life, just like Trayvon Martin did? You wouldn’t try to defend yourself? … I would not escalate the situation by introducing violence into it if I thought it could be handled peacefully. That was Martin’s fatal error. Someone following me and then asking me what I’m doing does not rise to the level of a threat to my life that justified the use of force. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/24 "2018-12-05T18:18:24Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’ll quibble with the bolded wording: Mr. Black was not ignoring police instructions. “Ignoring” is a purposeful act that presumes both knowledge and intent; Mr. Black was ignorant of the police orders because he could not hear them (as you noted); he was not reacting to them. The fact that police characterize it as “ignoring” is itself purposeful, as it helps them build the narrative that they want. > > Think how different the headline would be if it read “Police shoot man who does not react to their shouts”, which is what really happened. [And it isn’t the first time](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/no-charges-against-seattle-officer-who-shot-woodcarver/) ([2011 case that drew no charges](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt1mFQG3tJg)). How is a policeman in a dark house at the site of a known crime supposed to know whether this man is “not responding to” or “ignoring” police instructions? I’m not saying this guy should have been shot, but he was holding a gun that he wouldn’t put down, and he pointed at object at a police officer. How many black men in their 20s have been killed for far less? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/25 "2018-12-05T18:21:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > For those playing along at home, my first two bullet points were: > > [ul] > [li]Neither Martin nor the victim in this case were committing any crimes.[/li][li]Martin was unarmed, and posed no threat to Zimmerman. The homeowner in this case was armed, and ignoring police instructions. While he did this because he was mostly deaf, the police had no way of knowing this.[/li][/ul] > > So, **Shodan** , what crime was Trayvon Martin committing? Possession of Skittles? Walking While Black? Hoodie in the Third Degree? Ignoring the instructions of a fat asshole who thinks he’s a cop? According to the evidence, Martin was committing assault and battery. > [@](#): > > Are you claiming he was armed? No. > [@](#): > > Or do you take issue with my statement that he “posed no threat” to Zimmerman? Because if that’s the part you don’t like, then by your own logic, Zimmerman was posing a threat to Trayvon. A much worse threat, because he was armed. Therefore, Trayvon Martin would have been justified in killing Zimmerman, his armed assailant, in self defense, could he have done so. According to the evidence, Martin was the first to use violence. Martin was not justified in reacting to being asked what he was doing (according to Dee Dee’s testimony) by attacking Zimmerman. Asking someone what he is doing is not a threat, and does not justify violence. The idea of “I killed him because he asked me what I was doing” is absurd. “I killed him because I was in fear of my life from the person who attacked me, knocked me down, and was bashing my head on the ground” is not absurd. > [@](#): > > This happened AFTER Zimmerman stalked him, then pulled a gun on him. Stalking and brandishing a weapon often fall afoul of any of a number of laws, although I don’t know if Florida has any of those and I don’t frankly care enough to look it up. There is no evidence that Zimmerman pulled his gun until after Martin knocked him down, broke his nose, and bashed his head on the ground hard enough to put gashes in the back of Zimmerman’s head. There is evidence that he did not pull his gun - namely that the fight went on for a minute or more, long enough for people to hear it going on. If Zimmerman had his gun out, why would he wait for Martin to bash his head on the ground? > [@](#): > > Point is – put yourself in Trayvon’s situation. You’re walking down the street at night when a strange man starts stalking you, then corners you and pulls out a gun. In what possible world would any action you take against this madman NOT self defense? Zimmerman didn’t corner him, as has been pointed out. Martin had made it back to his father’s girlfriend’s house, and then (according to Dee Dee) doubled back, found Zimmerman, and attacked him. And Zimmerman was not stalking him when Martin doubled back - they had lost sight of each other. > [@](#): > > Remember, I’m asking you about MORALITY, not LEGALITY. You are being followed through the night by a strange man. You are committing no crime. You lose this man, but suddenly come upon him again and he demands to know what you are doing. He’s got a hand in his pocket in a pretty threatening manner. Martin didn’t suddenly come upon him again - Martin sought him out and attacked him. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman stalked Martin with a gun simply because of Martin’s race. There is no evidence of racial animus on Zimmerman’s part, and being the neighborhood watch guy is not stalking, morally or legally. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/26 "2018-12-05T18:24:35Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > That’s one way of looking at it. > > Another way of looking at it is that Martin found himself being pursued by a stranger with a gun and he Stood His Ground and defended himself. Defended himself against what - being asked what he was doing? That does not justify a violent response. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/27 "2018-12-05T18:29:09Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Wait…the septuagenarian? The guy with _severe_ hearing problems? The guy who had just fired a handgun _in close quarters_, which is easily enough to temporarily deafen even someone with ears that work right? _That_ guy should have _expected_ to die when he didn’t immediately hear and parse police shouting? _That_ guy is a Darwin candidate??? One shouldn’t even need to hear it. It should be common sense, shouldn’t it? The police respond to an incident. Do I really want them to see me with a gun in my hand? As they enter the house, I’m putting the gun down before they even see me holding it. I’m not going to get to the point where they see me and point a gun at me because anything could happen at that point, and I know that “anything” is going to be very bad for me. Oh, people in their 70’s are far from helpless and addled unless they have Alzheimer’s or something similar, in which case they shouldn’t even have a gun in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/28 "2018-12-05T18:54:44Z")
From the OP, snipped and bolded. > [@Babale](#): > > I’m very much hoping you guys can provide a reasonable explanation for why you’d be totally fine with Trayvon Martin being shot (or at least, unwilling to criticize Zimmerman’s actions) while this other case is a tragedy. **I’d like to hope that there’s more going on here than the race of the victims.** There isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/29 "2018-12-05T18:57:51Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I can’t be the only one who’s beyond thrilled that we finally have a thread in which to discuss the Martin/Zimmerman incident, can I? What’s to discuss? The prosecution should have brought Zimmerman up on manslaughter charges. Any reasonable jury would have convicted him. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/30 "2018-12-05T19:04:56Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > From the OP, snipped and bolded. > > There isn’t. Sure there is. The victim in Colorado had just saved his grandson from an intruder and was, in hindsight, not really a threat to the policeman that shot him. It was tragic. Martin hadn’t saved anyone, and was very much a threat to Zimmerman when he was shot. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/31 "2018-12-05T19:06:11Z")
The guy with an iced tea and a bag of Skittles was a threat to the guy with a gun. Okaaaayyyy… ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/32 "2018-12-05T19:09:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The guy with an iced tea and a bag of Skittles was a threat to the guy with a gun. > > Okaaaayyyy… Yes. When someone is bashing your head against concrete, that’s a threat. [front](https://www.washingtonpost.com/pbox.php?url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/files/2012/12/ZimmermanBloodyNose-224x300.jpg&w=1484&op=resize&opt=1&filter=antialias&t=20170517) [back](https://static.businessinsider.com/image/4f915bb76bb3f7ab59000054-750.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/33 "2018-12-05T19:10:21Z")
Sure, Martin just came out of nowhere and jumped the Good Guy before he had a chance to pull out his gun. Gotcha. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/34 "2018-12-05T19:12:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Sure, Martin just came out of nowhere and jumped the Good Guy before he had a chance to pull out his gun. Gotcha. :rolleyes: Your alternate theory is what? That Zimmerman had a gun pointed at Martin the whole time but he still let him beat him up a good bit before deciding to shoot him? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/35 "2018-12-05T19:16:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Martin didn’t suddenly come upon him again - Martin sought him out and attacked him. Okay, that explains a lot. You’re obviously posting from an alternate universe. Just for your information, that’s not the way it happened here in our world. Zimmerman was following Martin in this universe. > [@Shodan](#): > > There is no evidence of racial animus on Zimmerman’s part, and being the neighborhood watch guy is not stalking, morally or legally. No, going around your neighborhood looking for people who you think look like criminals is what makes it stalking. And deciding that somebody looks like a criminal because they’re black is evidence of racial animus. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/36 "2018-12-05T19:20:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Your alternate theory is what? That Zimmerman had a gun pointed at Martin the whole time but he still let him beat him up a good bit before deciding to shoot him? No, my theory is that Martin saw a stranger following him for no apparent reason and decided that that stranger might be a potential criminal. Your theory is that Zimmerman saw a stranger who was black and decided that that stranger might be a potential criminal. Which of our theories sounds racist? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/37 "2018-12-05T19:23:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes. When someone is bashing your head against concrete, that’s a threat. Or it’s self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/38 "2018-12-05T19:26:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Okay, that explains a lot. You’re obviously posting from an alternate universe. Just for your information, that’s not the way it happened here in our world. Zimmerman was following Martin in this universe. No, I am posting from this universe. Zimmerman spotted Martin, called in to the NEN dispatcher, who told Zimmerman “we don’t need you to do that” (i.e. follow Martin), then Martin and Zimmerman lost sight of each other (according to Zimmerman’s contemporary statements and Dee Dee’s account) and Martin was “right by his father’s house”, and Martin doubled back, confronted Zimmerman, and then attacked him (according to Dee Dee’s testimony and the circumstantial evidence) when Zimmerman asked Martin what he was doing. > [@](#): > > No, going around your neighborhood looking for people who you think look like criminals is what makes it stalking. And deciding that somebody looks like a criminal because they’re black is evidence of racial animus. Zimmerman was not going around his neighborhood looking for people; he was driving home from Target, and he was the neighborhood watch guy, who had already made a number of reports of suspicious activity ranging from missing children to burglaries in progress. Being the neighborhood watch guy is not stalking. There is no evidence that Zimmerman decided Martin looked like a criminal based on Martin’s race. Zimmerman’s description of what made him notice Martin did not include his race, nor is there any evidence of racial animus on Zimmerman’s part. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/39 "2018-12-05T19:28:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Defended himself against what Sorta hard to answer this when Martin is dead and Zimmerman (i.e. the guy who killed him) is the only other person who was present. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/40 "2018-12-05T19:29:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Zimmerman’s description of what made him notice Martin did not include his race, nor is there any evidence of racial animus on Zimmerman’s part. I believe this. I mean, if you can’t trust the guy who shot him, who can you trust? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614.md?page=3)