# How is Mason1972's example worse than the Zimmerman shooting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614 "2018-12-05T15:42:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/41 "2018-12-05T19:36:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Or it’s self-defense. It’s not self defense without an “imminent use of unlawful force”. Zimmerman asking Martin what he was doing does not qualify as an “imminent use of unlawful force”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/42 "2018-12-05T19:39:27Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Sorta hard to answer this when Martin is dead and Zimmerman (i.e. the guy who killed him) is the only other person who was present. The 911 recordings do add a little light, though. And not favorably for Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/43 "2018-12-05T19:42:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Your alternate theory is what? That Zimmerman had a gun pointed at Martin the whole time but he still let him beat him up a good bit before deciding to shoot him? Yes, the gun was pointed at Martin, do you doubt it? Do you also \*not \*doubt Zimmerman’s physical conditioning? What’s your theory as to why Martin suddenly jumped him for no apparent reason? (This oughta be good, too …) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/44 "2018-12-05T19:46:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I would not escalate the situation by introducing violence into it if I thought it could be handled peacefully. That was Martin’s fatal error. Why would Trayvon have any reason to think that this situation could be handled peacefully? He was followed by a man with a gun, then accosted and forced to explain his presence. What the fuck is that, by the way? Why does Zimmerman have this God-given right to wander the streets of Florida, demanding that passerbys (well, black passerbys) explain their business? > [@](#): > > Someone following me and then asking me what I’m doing does not rise to the level of a threat to my life that justified the use of force. I sincerely hope that you never experience a situation like Trayvon Martin did. Luckily for you, your race ensures that you probably won’t, at least not in the United States. But [in the years leading up to 2012 African Americans were the victims of over 4,000 violent hate crimes in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime#Victims_in_the_United_States). So if Trayvon Martin doesn’t share your certainty that the armed stalker coming after him isn’t a threat, forgive me if I agree with him. > [@Shodan](#): > > According to the evidence, Martin was committing assault and battery.No.According to the evidence, Martin was the first to use violence. Martin was not justified in reacting to being asked what he was doing (according to Dee Dee’s testimony) by attacking Zimmerman. > > Asking someone what he is doing is not a threat, and does not justify violence. I can assure you that you can stop someone on the street and demand to know what they are doing in a very threatening way. It’s all about tone of voice and body language. For example, if you walked through the streets of downtown Chicago when an armed black man stopped you and demanded to know what you were doing there, there would be certain clues you could use to determine that he is asking this question because he doesn’t believe your kind belongs in this place, and implying the threat of violence if you don’t leave. For an example of how asking someone, “what are you doing here?” can have racist undertones, check out this link: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/29/she-was-white-hot-racist-video-now-shes-viral-unemployed/?utm\_term=.a889d85a2f41](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/29/she-was-white-hot-racist-video-now-shes-viral-unemployed/?utm_term=.a889d85a2f41) Obviously that woman wasn’t particularly threatening. I would imagine an armed male of George Zimmerman’s stature would be quite a bit scarier. If you have never faced this sort of treatment because of your ethnicity, I’m very happy for you. As someone who has, I can assure you that it would not be very hard at all for George Zimmerman to say “What are you doing here?” while communicating the message, “You came to the wrong neighborhood, darkie”. > [@](#): > > The idea of “I killed him because he asked me what I was doing” is absurd. “I killed him because I was in fear of my life from the person who attacked me, knocked me down, and was bashing my head on the ground” is not absurd. What the hell is your theory? That Martin, a 17 year old boy with no criminal record or history of violence, noticed that Zimmerman was stalking him and decided to ambush him, then attacked him for no reason and started bashing his head against the ground? Isn’t it much more likely that Zimmerman (who has a history of pulling this sort of vigilante crap and actually got in legal trouble for it when he did it again AFTER the Trayvon Martin thing died down) who had been stalking this kid actually did cause Trayvon Martin to fear for his life, leading him to defend himself? > [@](#): > > There is no evidence that Zimmerman pulled his gun until after Martin knocked him down, broke his nose, and bashed his head on the ground hard enough to put gashes in the back of Zimmerman’s head. There is evidence that he did not pull his gun - namely that the fight went on for a minute or more, long enough for people to hear it going on. If Zimmerman had his gun out, why would he wait for Martin to bash his head on the ground? Again, what the hell is your theory? That Martin had been hiding his savage bloodlust for 17 years, or perhaps the hormones of puberty just made him violent, and that he attacked and beat Zimmerman for no reason, despite Zimmerman being no threat to him? > [@](#): > > Zimmerman didn’t corner him, as has been pointed out. Martin had made it back to his father’s girlfriend’s house, and then (according to Dee Dee) doubled back, found Zimmerman, and attacked him. And Zimmerman was not stalking him when Martin doubled back - they had lost sight of each other. > Martin didn’t suddenly come upon him again - Martin sought him out and attacked him.There is no evidence of racial animus on Zimmerman’s part, and being the neighborhood watch guy is not stalking, morally or legally. > > Regards, > Shodan So why do you think Martin would do all of this? What’s his motive? Because we have a motive for Zimmerman: he’s got a hardon for Vigilante justice, as we can see [by his actions both before and after the shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Zimmerman). There’s a very simple narrative (George “Batman” Zimmerman scared the ever-living crap out of a black kid by following him around, when the kid realized he had a gun he tried to defended himself and was killed) that explains literally everything about this case and is consistent with all the facts we know. What’s your narrative? > [@Shodan](#): > > Defended himself against what - being asked what he was doing? That does not justify a violent response. > > Regards, > Shodan See above. > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > From the OP, snipped and bolded. > > There isn’t. Sigh… I’m beginning to suspect that you’re right. I should have known better, but I was hoping against it. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sure there is. The victim in Colorado had just saved his grandson from an intruder and was, in hindsight, not really a threat to the policeman that shot him. It was tragic. > > Martin hadn’t saved anyone, and was very much a threat to Zimmerman when he was shot. You sure that the difference isn’t that one of them was old and white while the other was young and black? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The guy with an iced tea and a bag of Skittles was a threat to the guy with a gun. > > Okaaaayyyy… > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes. When someone is bashing your head against concrete, that’s a threat. When someone follows you around with a gun, that’s an implicit threat. Trayvon defended himself against that threat. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Sure, Martin just came out of nowhere and jumped the Good Guy before he had a chance to pull out his gun. Gotcha. :rolleyes: Right? What the hell is supposed to be his motive? It’s like they think that the fact that he’s young and he’s black is enough to explain any violent actions by him, so they don’t even bother ascribing any motivation to this. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Your alternate theory is what? That Zimmerman had a gun pointed at Martin the whole time but he still let him beat him up a good bit before deciding to shoot him? Zimmerman scared the shit out of Trayvon when he was following him around before. When Zimmerman started questioning Trayvon, he either pulled out the gun, or Martin saw its bulge or otherwise realized how big of a threat he was in. Realizing that he could not escape an armed assailant who could shoot him in the back if he ran, Martin defended himself as best he could (ironically enough, in accordance with Florida’s Stand Your Ground laws, he would be allowed to use deadly force to defend himself here). Unfortunately, Zimmerman reached his gun and murdered Martin despite his best efforts to defend himself. What’s your theory? That Martin was saving the skittles for a snack, but what he REALLY hungered for was Zimmerman’s blood, so he circled back and hunted him down? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/45 "2018-12-05T19:52:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > … What’s your theory as to why Martin suddenly jumped him for no apparent reason? (This oughta be good, too …) I don’t know why he decided to get violent with Zimmerman. It was an extremely foolish decision, but foolish decisions seem to be something of a pattern for Martin: > [@](#): > > While a student at Dr. Michael M. Krop High School, Martin had behavioral issues. At the time of the shooting, he was serving a ten-day suspension for having a marijuana pipe and an empty bag containing marijuana residue. He had been suspended twice before, for tardiness and truancy and marking up a door with graffiti. The suspension for graffiti was in October 2011, when Martin was observed by a school police officer on a security camera “hiding and being suspicious” in a restricted area of the school. According to the officer, he later observed Martin marking up a door with “W.T.F.” When his backpack was searched the next day by a Miami-Dade School Police officer, looking for the graffiti marker, the officer found a dozen pieces of women’s jewelry, a watch and a screwdriver that was described by the school police officer as a burglary tool. The jewelry found in his backpack included silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds. When Martin was asked by the officer if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend, he said a friend had given it to him. When asked for the name of the friend, Martin declined to provide it. > > … > > The Miami Herald also reported that Martin was not happy at Krop High School: in one of his tweets he had written, "WULD I MISS KROP?? HELL NAW FUK DA SKOOL, FUK DA LUNCH, ND MOST OF ALL FUK DA FACULTY… IMA MISS SUM OF DA STUDENTS, MAINLY DA BABIES 😉 > **[Trayvon Martin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin)** > > Trayvon Benjamin Martin (February 5, 1995 – February 26, 2012) was a 17-year-old African-American from Miami Gardens, Florida, who was fatally shot in Sanford, Florida, by George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old Hispanic American. Martin had accompanied his father to visit his father's fiancée at her townhouse at The Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford. On the evening of February 26, Martin was walking back to the fiancée's house from a nearby convenience store. Zimmerman, a member of the community watch... ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/46 "2018-12-05T19:54:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know why he decided to get violent with Zimmerman. It was an extremely foolish decision, but foolish decisions seem to be something of a pattern for Martin: > > [Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin) GASP! You’re telling me that Trayvon Martin smoked m… mar… MARIJUANA?! WHAT?! and he did gra-- graFITI?! man, good thing Zimmerman took him out, that guy was a menace to society. No, wait. Those are non-violent offences, the kind a stupid kid might do. Do you have any evidence of VIOLENT behavior? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/47 "2018-12-05T19:54:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, the gun was pointed at Martin, do you doubt it? … We have no evidence that the gun was pointed at Martin at the moment Martin initiated his attack on Zimmerman. Personally, I find the theory laughably implausible, so yes I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/48 "2018-12-05T19:55:03Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Sorta hard to answer this when Martin is dead and Zimmerman (i.e. the guy who killed him) is the only other person who was present. Then you need to consider the circumstantial evidence, Dee Dee’s testimony (she was on the phone with Martin at the time), the transcript of the call to the NEN operator, and things like that. For instance, the mark on Martin’s fist consistent with having punched someone, and Zimmerman’s broken nose and blackened eyes. And the eyewitness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, and the grass stains and moisture on Martin’s knees and the back of Zimmerman’s jacket. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I believe this. I mean, if you can’t trust the guy who shot him, who can you trust? You shouldn’t. You should look at the evidence, including statements made by Zimmerman before the shooting. > [@Babale](#): > > Why would Trayvon have any reason to think that this situation could be handled peacefully? The fact that, according to Dee Dee’s testimony, he was out of sight of Zimmerman, right by his father’s house, and could have peacefully handled it by walking in the door. Instead, Martin handled it by going back, confronting Zimmerman, and attacking him, breaking his nose, blackening his eyes, and bashing his head on the ground. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/49 "2018-12-05T19:56:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The guy with an iced tea and a bag of Skittles was a threat to the guy with a gun. > > Okaaaayyyy… There was no iced tea. The media outlets were wrong when they first published that claim, and you’re wrong for repeating it. Martin had purchased a can of Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice. It was found at the crime scene. [https://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/gallery/evidencephotos/015.jpg](https://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/gallery/evidencephotos/015.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/50 "2018-12-05T19:56:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > … Do you have any evidence of VIOLENT behavior? Yes, see post #32. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/51 "2018-12-05T19:59:00Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > How is a policeman in a dark house at the site of a known crime supposed to know whether this man is “not responding to” or “ignoring” police instructions? I’m not saying this guy should have been shot, but he was holding a gun **that he wouldn’t put down** , and he pointed at object at a police officer. How many black men in their 20s have been killed for far less? The bolded part presumes knowledge and intent, just like using the word “ignored” does and it prejudices the discussion. In this case, you are using “wouldn’t” to mean “refused” which is false: Mr. Black never refused to put the weapon down. Do you disagree? I mean, let’s make sure we’re talking about the same event and that we agree on what happened, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/52 "2018-12-05T20:03:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then you need to consider the circumstantial evidence, Dee Dee’s testimony (she was on the phone with Martin at the time), the transcript of the call to the NEN operator, and things like that. For instance, the mark on Martin’s fist consistent with having punched someone, and Zimmerman’s broken nose and blackened eyes. And the eyewitness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, and the grass stains and moisture on Martin’s knees and the back of Zimmerman’s jacket. Yes, because he FELT THREATENED by the armed man who was stalking him and now demanding to know why he was here, in a neighborhood he had every right to be in, acting suspicious in no way, aside from daring to be black. And when this armed man made these threatening remarks to Martin, he proceeded to defend himself, quite effectively. That’s why he punched Zimmerman and had grass stains on his knees. Because he was defending himself. If I was being followed by an armed man, I would defend myself too. > [@](#): > > You shouldn’t. You should look at the evidence, including statements made by Zimmerman before the shooting. The fact that, according to Dee Dee’s testimony, he was out of sight of Zimmerman, right by his father’s house, and could have peacefully handled it by walking in the door. Instead, Martin handled it by going back, confronting Zimmerman, and attacking him, breaking his nose, blackening his eyes, and bashing his head on the ground. > > Regards, > Shodan So now you’re saying that when Zimmerman is on patrol, all the shady black kids better get indoors and hide themselves, because if they run into \*George “Batman” Zimmerman, First Lieutenant, Neighborhood Watch, \*then he can question them for their suspicious behavior? How come no one is questioning Zimmerman for HIS suspicious behavior? I’d much rather have Trayvon Martin running up and down my street with skittles in his pocket than have Sheriff Zimmerman, Fastest Gun in the South keeping me “safe” by questioning passing black people. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/53 "2018-12-05T20:05:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What the hell is your theory? That Martin, a 17 year old boy with no criminal record or history of violence… (post shortened) Travon Martin had a criminal record. Martin was staying with his father at his father’s girlfriends home. Martin had been sent there by his mother after Martin had received another suspension, this time a 10 day suspension, from his high school. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/54 "2018-12-05T20:07:23Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > … You sure that the difference isn’t that one of them was old and white while the other was young and black? … Yes. > [@Babale](#): > > … ironically enough, in accordance with Florida’s Stand Your Ground laws, he would be allowed to use deadly force to defend himself here … No, Trayvon would not have been justified in murdering Zimmerman for asking him what he was doing. You apparently don’t understand Florida’s laws. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/55 "2018-12-05T20:07:29Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > There was no iced tea. The media outlets were wrong when they first published that claim, and you’re wrong for repeating it. > > Martin had purchased a can of Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice. It was found at the crime scene. > > [https://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/gallery/evidencephotos/015.jpg](https://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/gallery/evidencephotos/015.jpg) Thank you for correcting this grievous error! 😃 > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, see post #32. Prior violent behavior, since we’re trying to establish his character. Those photos are from the incident in question, and we’re trying to establish Trayvon Martin’s state of mind when he was part of the incident that led to Zimmerman getting those injuries. That should be obvious, but… you know. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The bolded part presumes knowledge and intent, just like using the word “ignored” does and it prejudices the discussion. In this case, you are using “wouldn’t” to mean “refused” which is false: Mr. Black never refused to put the weapon down. Do you disagree? I mean, let’s make sure we’re talking about the same event and that we agree on what happened, okay? Fine, here. Added the underlined parts. How is a policeman in a dark house at the site of a known crime supposed to know whether this man is “not responding to” or “ignoring” police instructions? I’m not saying this guy should have been shot, but he was holding a gun that he didn’t put down when police demanded he do so, and he pointed at object at a police officer. How many black men in their 20s have been killed for far less? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/56 "2018-12-05T20:12:22Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Travon Martin had a criminal record. Martin was staying with his father at his father’s girlfriends home. Martin had been sent there by his mother after Martin had received another suspension, this time a 10 day suspension, from his high school. A school suspension is not a criminal record. I do grant you that Trayvon Martin did have some issues with the law, although he’d never been charged with anything AFAIK. However, there is 0 history of violence. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes. > No, Trayvon would not have been justified in murdering Zimmerman for asking him what he was doing. You apparently don’t understand Florida’s laws. Zimmerman didn’t JUST ask Trayvon what he was doing. You apparently don’t understand basic social interaction. When a grown white man follows a black kid around, carrying a gun, and demands to know what the black kid is “doing” this is an implicit threat. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/57 "2018-12-05T20:14:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > … Zimmerman didn’t JUST ask Trayvon what he was doing. You apparently don’t understand basic social interaction. When a grown white man follows a black kid around, carrying a gun, and demands to know what the black kid is “doing” this is an implicit threat. I understand that the law would not view that “implicit threat” as legal justification for deadly force in self defense. Do you understand that? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/58 "2018-12-05T20:16:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Why would Trayvon have any reason to think that this situation could be handled peacefully? He was followed by a man with a gun, then accosted and forced to explain his presence. What the fuck is that, by the way? Why does Zimmerman have this God-given right to wander the streets of Florida, demanding that passerbys (well, black passerbys) explain their business? > > …What’s your theory? That Martin was saving the skittles for a snack, but what he REALLY hungered for was Zimmerman’s blood, so he circled back and hunted him down? (post shortened) According to Martin’s non-girlfriend Dee Dee’s testimony, Martin was standing by Martin’s father’s girlfriend’s house, which was 300 feet away from Zimmerman’s location. Martin referred to the person following him as a (derogatory name), and then proceed to where Zimmerman was standing. A fight ensued. Martin could have entered the house, but chose not to. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/59 "2018-12-05T20:17:15Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So maybe my problem isn’t so much with people who are condemning the shooting itself as it is with people who are condemning **Mason1972** ’s position while holding a much more abhorrent position themselves. Well, I didnt post in that thread, but the ATMB thread on that made it clear- Mason1972 got a warning (details in both threads). It isnt so much that his position was wrong, but that he did it in the wrong thread. There’s a PIT thread about stupid gun news, and if he had posted his story there, he would have gotten a totally different reaction. Another example is posting in a thread about “Who was your favorite Friends character?” with a post about how you hated that show and a rant about how evil and stupid all the characters were. Indeed, that could be a OK opinion, but not there. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/60 "2018-12-05T20:17:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Fine, here. Added the underlined parts. > > How is a policeman in a dark house at the site of a known crime supposed to know whether this man is “not responding to” or “ignoring” police instructions? The police should determine that, or attempt to determine that, BEFORE they shoot someone, IMO. Do you disagree? > [@Babale](#): > > I’m not saying this guy should have been shot, but he was holding a gun that he didn’t put down when police demanded he do so, Again, you’re assuming knowledge on Mr. Black’s part, but you’ve also already acknowledged that Mr. Black did not hear the officer(s). If he didn’t hear them, he didn’t know he was supposed to stop holding the gun. Do you disagree? > [@Babale](#): > > and he pointed at object at a police officer. Whoa! He did? I don’t recall seeing that in any of the news stories about this. I have not watched the video (and don’t intend to). > [@Babale](#): > > How many black men in their 20s have been killed for far less? Again, you seem to be offering this up as justification for this shooting, despite saying earlier “I’m not saying the guy should have been shot”; your position is ambiguous at best, but your actions keep trying to justify this shooting. Is that your intent? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614.md?page=4)