# How is Mason1972's example worse than the Zimmerman shooting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614 "2018-12-05T15:42:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/141 "2018-12-06T16:50:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This was the most predictable response in this whole thread. No matter what either of us said about possible reasons for Martin attacking Zimmerman, the response was always going to be along these lines: ‘disgusting’ ‘slandering the dead’ ‘won’t somebody think of the children’ ‘oh my feels’. > > Stuff your outrage And what of yours, which appears to be designed to deflect from the fact that you left out several extremely salient details in your description of events. > [@](#): > > Martin started a fight which he lost. Did he start it? Your transcript suggests that Zimmerman was the main antagonist and while it doesn’t show who threw the first punch (and since one of the parties is dead we only have Zimmerman’s word for it) we have a report of Martin saying “Get off!”. > [@](#): > > There’s no evidence that Martin was “threatened” by Zimmerman. We’ve been over this already. Apart from the various times Dee Dee mentioned Martin expressing concern over Zimmerman’s actions, that he sounded scared, that Zimmerman had gotten “real close” and that when asked why he was following Martin Zimmerman responded angrily? > [@](#): > > And what have you got for the “confronted” part? Martin was the one that started the conversation with Zimmerman, according to Dee Dee. Sounds to me like he was confronting Zimmerman, not the other way around. So asking a person who followed you home why they were following you is now a belligerent act, but actually following someone home isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/142 "2018-12-06T16:51:51Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > … (and piss off, **Shodan** , … Knock it off. This is not appropriate for this forum. If you feel you must, the Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/143 "2018-12-06T16:52:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There’s no evidence that Martin was “threatened” by Zimmerman. We’ve been over this already. > > And what have you got for the “confronted” part? Martin was the one that started the conversation with Zimmerman, according to Dee Dee. Sounds to me like he was confronting Zimmerman, not the other way around. > > As for “stalked”, you’re apparently not using the legal definition, so rather than me guess at what personal definition you may be using, why don’t you just tell me what you mean by “stalked”. A grown man follows a child around, approaches him, and the child ends up dead. Yet you blame the victim of this encounter. Typical. And yeah, you’re right. Any excuse you would make would be disgusting, because you’re defending someone who, morally, is the equivalent of a murderer. Even if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman in cold blood, which you have no evidence for, none of this would have ever happened if George Zimmerman didn’t go out looking to make trouble. In your scenario, where Martin suddenly becomes violent despite no history of violence, him and Zimmerman share the blame for what happened, 50/50. Again, before you screech about Florida law, I am talking about moral culpability, not legal responsibility. In any realistic scenario, Zimmerman’s share of the blame explodes upwards. So yeah. You defending him IS disgusting, and always will be. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/144 "2018-12-06T16:54:03Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Knock it off. This is not appropriate for this forum. If you feel you must, the Pit is right around the corner. > > [/moderating] Fair enough, I will tone down any personal discussion here. I think we simultaneously posted so if my last post falls afoul of your instructions I apologize and will take it to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/145 "2018-12-06T16:56:55Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > … So asking a person who followed you home why they were following you is now a belligerent act, but actually following someone home isn’t? Neither one of those are criminal acts, and neither justifies violence. Punching someone in the face for asking “what are you doing” IS though, and straddling them and bashing their head on concrete does justify a violent self-defense response. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/146 "2018-12-06T17:03:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Neither one of those are criminal acts, and neither justifies violence. Punching someone in the face for asking “what are you doing” IS though, and straddling them and bashing their head on concrete does justify a violent self-defense response. So just to summarize. You believe that, entirely unprovoked, Martin attacked Zimmerman, who was able to reach for his gun and end the attack. This despite the fact that Martin has no history of violence while Zimmerman has plenty of violent incidents, many involving guns. But you refuse to tell us why Martin would do such a thing because you know that we would find your reasoning disgusting. Thank you for your time, I think I know everything I wanted to know now. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/147 "2018-12-06T17:10:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > … In your scenario, where Martin suddenly becomes violent despite no history of violence, him and Zimmerman share the blame for what happened, 50/50. Again, before you screech about Florida law, I am talking about moral culpability, not legal responsibility. … No. Morally, the one who initiates violence is at fault. The evidence suggests that was likely Martin. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/148 "2018-12-06T17:12:05Z")
My calendar does not show this to be Opposite Day. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/149 "2018-12-06T17:12:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No. Morally, the one who initiates violence is at fault. The evidence suggests that was likely Martin. Are you going to address the history of violent behavior that makes that unlikely? Nah, of course you’re not. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/150 "2018-12-06T17:14:59Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > A grown man follows a child around… Martin was 17. He may not have legally been an adult, but he’s not what I would call a child (unless I was trying to make an emotional appeal because the facts didn’t support my argument). ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/151 "2018-12-06T17:18:51Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > (and piss off, **Shodan** That’ll earn you a warning, Babale. Please don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/152 "2018-12-06T17:20:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Martin was 17. He may not have legally been an adult, but he’s not what I would call a child (unless I was trying to make an emotional appeal because the facts didn’t support my argument). So you’re still not answering my question. Figures. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/153 "2018-12-06T17:21:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > … Even if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman in cold blood, which you have no evidence for … What are you talking about? There’s lots of evidence of that Martin attacked Zimmerman. There’s Zimmerman’s bloody face and head. There were reportedly abrasions on Martin’s knuckles. There’s a witness that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, as well as the grass stains on Martin’s knees and Zimmerman’s back. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/154 "2018-12-06T17:23:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What are you talking about? There’s lots of evidence of that Martin attacked Zimmerman. There’s Zimmerman’s bloody face and head. There were reportedly abrasions on Martin’s knuckles. There’s a witness that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, as well as the grass stains on Martin’s knees and Zimmerman’s back. No, that’s evidence that Martin and Zimmerman had an altercation, and at least at one point, Martin was winning. That’s like me arguing that there’s lots of evidence that Zimmerman attacked Martin – the bullet hole in Martin’s body, for one. Are you going to address Zimmerman’s history of violence, as multiple posters have asked you repeatedly? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/155 "2018-12-06T17:26:14Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > That’ll earn you a warning, Babale. Please don’t do this again. Understood. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/156 "2018-12-06T17:26:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So you’re still not answering my question. Figures. Which question? About Martin’s history? I think it unlikely that his encounter with Zimmerman was the first time Martin had ever thrown a punch, but even if it was, “this is the first time we have a record of that he ever beat the shit out of someone” does not mean he gets a pass for it. He was still on top of Zimmerman, bashing his head on the concrete, when he was shot. That makes the shooting justified. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/157 "2018-12-06T17:28:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No. Morally, the one who initiates violence is at fault. Is that always true? For instance, in the Positive Gun News thread, there is a recent story of a woman who killed an escaped inmate. Can you tell me what violence he initiated on her before she killed him? Or is it possible that the threat of violence is enough to justify violence? > [@](#): > > The evidence suggests that was likely Martin. With the primary evidence being the testimony of the only person to survive the encounter, the evidence can suggest that to someone who is looking to blame the dead kid for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/158 "2018-12-06T17:30:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No, that’s evidence that Martin and Zimmerman had an altercation… Is there any evidence that Zimmerman ever threw a punch in this “altercation”? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/159 "2018-12-06T17:36:03Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Which question? About Martin’s history? I think it unlikely that his encounter with Zimmerman was the first time Martin had ever thrown a punch, but even if it was, “this is the first time we have a record of that he ever beat the shit out of someone” does not mean he gets a pass for it. He was still on top of Zimmerman, bashing his head on the concrete, when he was shot. That makes the shooting justified. No, the question about Zimmerman’s long and varied history of violence, including gun-related violence. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Is there any evidence that Zimmerman ever threw a punch in this “altercation”? No, because he brought a gun to a fistfight. Much more effective, and as a bonus, makes sure we never get to hear the other side of the story. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614/160 "2018-12-06T17:37:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Is that always true? … No, there are probably numerous exceptions / caveats to that general principle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-mason1972s-example-worse-than-the-zimmerman-shooting/825614.md?page=9)