# How is OWS Supposed to Work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191 "2011-11-07T19:11:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/21 "2011-11-08T02:41:52Z")
I can’t believe that this hasn’t got more attention. From [the 99percentDeclaration](https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/): > [@](#): > > WE, THE NINETY-NINE PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in order to form a more perfect Union, by, for and of the PEOPLE, shall elect and convene a NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY beginning on July 4, 2012 in the City Of Philadelphia. > [@](#): > > In addition to ensuring a free and fair election of the Delegates to the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY, the Working Group on the 99% Declaration shall be responsible for raising sufficient funds to secure a venue wherein the 870\* Delegates may convene, deliberate, consider, vote and ratify a PETITION OF GRIEVANCES to be presented to all 535 members of Congress, the 9 members of the Supreme Court, the President of the United States and each of the political candidates seeking to be elected to federal public office in November 2012. Subject to the voting procedure for the final vote of ratification of the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES as set forth in section III, the Delegates of the National General Assembly shall vote upon and implement their own rules, procedures, agenda, code of conduct, elections or appointments of committee members to efficiently and expeditiously accomplish the People’s mandate to present a PETITION OF GRIEVANCES to the government of the United States of America and political candidates before the 2012 election. There is more, including 21 specific grievances which I assume are still debatable at the convention. If their grievances aren’t heard, then: > [@](#): > > BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that IF the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES approved by the 870 Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY in consultation with the PEOPLE, is not acted upon within a reasonable time and to the satisfaction of the Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY, said Delegates shall utilize the grassroots network established in the election of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY to organize a new INDEPENDENT POLITICAL PARTY to run candidates for every available Congressional seat in the mid-term election of 2014 and again in 2016 until all vestiges of the existing corrupt corporatocracy have been eradicated through the power of the ballot box. It is just that simple! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/22 "2011-11-08T13:19:02Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > The only change in the conversation I’ve really seen is a lot more attention to income inequality. That’s a **really** important and valuable change! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/23 "2011-11-08T13:54:46Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I can’t believe that this hasn’t got more attention. From [the 99percentDeclaration](https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/): > > There is more, including 21 specific grievances which I assume are still debatable at the convention. If their grievances aren’t heard, then: > It is just that simple! I can’t tell if you’re joking or not. Can you clarify that before I comment? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/24 "2011-11-09T15:14:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can’t tell if you’re joking or not. Can you clarify that before I comment? I’m not joking, I am simply quoting what others are writing/saying on the radio. AFAIK that really is how OWS is supposed to work. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/25 "2011-11-09T15:52:55Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I’m not joking, I am simply quoting what others are writing/saying on the radio. AFAIK that really is how OWS is supposed to work. OK, then it will be a spectacular failure, devolving into a hodge-podge of leftish causes that few Congresscritters can get behind. Then, according to their plan, they form their own political party, and if they do that, they will hand the government over to the GOP on a silver platter. Just like the TPers would have done for the Dems if they had formed their own political party. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/26 "2011-11-09T15:54:12Z")
There’s some wisdom there in (1) threatening a third-party bid (2) but not before 2014. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/27 "2011-11-09T15:55:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, then it will be a spectacular failure, devolving into a hodge-podge of leftish causes that few Congresscritters can get behind. Then, according to their plan, they form their own political party, and if they do that, they will hand the government over to the GOP on a silver platter. Just like the TPers would have done for the Dems if they had formed their own political party. Oh, you’ll find the TPers can accomplish exactly the same thing from within the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/28 "2011-11-09T16:01:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Oh, you’ll find the TPers can accomplish exactly the same thing from within the GOP. Often, they do. Especially at the federal level (eg, Senators). They can make gains at the local level and among Federal Representatives where districts are tightly drawn, but they don’t have the broad appeal that more moderate candidates have. The GOP would have done much better in the Senate elections in 2010 w/o the TPers, who basically sabotaged the primaries with nut-job candidates who have to go on air to claim they are “not a witch”. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/29 "2011-11-09T16:07:40Z")
What is the OSW movement supposed to do? That’s the beauty of it, it doesn’t do anything. These leftist style protest tactics always leave me scratching my head. They seem to assume that everyone has the same emotional reaction to things that they do and all they have to do is channel that collective energy. It doesn’t work that way for most people that aren’t them. Most of us just see a group of people camping and hanging out out as somewhat annoying to amusing but conferring no special authority or knowledge for anything political. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/30 "2011-11-09T16:16:25Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > The inference is (I guess) that the OWS crowd hopes to turn a profit by sitting in tents. Apparently you read more into it than I did. The “profit” is a reference to an internet meme based on an episode of South Park. Actual profit was not implied ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/31 "2011-11-09T17:28:24Z")
And we see that even in Mississippi, the fetus = person doesn’t fly statewide. I’m sure there are plenty of Congressional districts where it would easily pass. This is the sort of thing I was referencing above. Maybe they should try to Incorporate fetuses and take it to the SCOTUS. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/32 "2011-11-09T17:36:23Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > These leftist style protest tactics always leave me scratching my head. They seem to assume that everyone has the same emotional reaction to things that they do and all they have to do is channel that collective energy. It doesn’t work that way for most people that aren’t them. Most of us just see a group of people camping and hanging out out as somewhat annoying to amusing but conferring no special authority or knowledge for anything political. If you were in their shoes, and trying to accomplish their goals or something in that general direction, what tactics would **you** use? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/33 "2011-11-10T02:22:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If you were in their shoes, and trying to accomplish their goals or something in that general direction, what tactics would **you** use? OK, here is what I would do. Contrary to what you may guess about me, I have had a problem with the financial world and its operations for a long time. I think a lot of what they do is just a scheme with little value to anyone but themselves. Contrary to assertions made earlier in the thread, many people have known about this basically forever but especially in the last decade. The Enron and Worldcom scandals shook the financial world, ruined many lives, and resulted in reforms especially in the Sarbane Oxley act. I work under those laws in my job as a consultant and they are harsh and effective at preventing corporate malfeasance at the individual company level. I would propose something similar for the financial sector as a whole. A large and comprehensive federal act would be expensive to implement but it should not only reduce the overall problem of greed grabbing at the expense of others but also create a large number of quality white collar jobs. The details would be intricate but the overall idea is that individual leaders wouldn’t be able to make individual gain in public companies without a corresponding gain for shareholders and the company wealth itself. The total amount of gain wouldn’t be limited but corporate leaders would have to show that they didn’t make any gain themselves that was at the expense of other parties associated with the company. It would all have to be proportionate and tied to longer term results than quarter by quarter. The OWS people must have a few people with brains among their ranks including some law school grads. They could start the bill themselves and market it to the masses and politicians through social networks not limited to but including Facebook and Twitter. That is actually getting something done instead of just sitting around being pissed at something vague and a tactic they should learn to adopt. ---
**Author:** ![YourAdHere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/65b543/32.png) [@YourAdHere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YourAdHere)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/34 "2011-11-10T03:04:14Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > Are you making a point of some kind here? And if so, could you explain it to us ordinary folks? > SS That format is a fairly common Internet joke / meme. I see it used on [fark.com](http://fark.com), for example, a lot, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/35 "2011-11-10T03:52:10Z")
Funny how some smart people don’t understand how politicians are moved. They fear for losing their jobs. They get money from lobbyists and special interests. The pay little attention to the bitching of the masses, They are ,in political minds, counterbalanced by the other sides of the masses. The people really do not matter unless they can show they have the power to put their seats in jeopardy if the politicians vote badly. The elections Tuesday may be a wake up call. The people are aware of what has gone on and they do not like it. The people may be showing they will not allow the powerful to loot us any longer. The reps and senators may actually have to consider their constituents in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/36 "2011-11-10T03:59:14Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Funny how some smart people don’t understand how politicians are moved. They fear for losing their jobs. They get money from lobbyists and special interests. The pay little attention to the bitching of the masses, They are ,in political minds, counterbalanced by the other sides of the masses. The people really do not matter unless they can show they have the power to put their seats in jeopardy if the politicians vote badly. … and a few hundred hanging out in tents and “occupying” Zuccotti park (or about 6 thousand marching on a bank at its peak) in the most populous city in the United States is definitely going to convince those (Democrat, from NY) politicians that they’re about to lose their jobs. _snickers_ ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/37 "2011-11-10T04:28:33Z")
Yes, it’s such a non-event that all over the media and in every corner of the internet, people are going out of their way to loudly proclaim that it isn’t a big deal. That’s what I usually do about things that don’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/38 "2011-11-10T16:19:34Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > OK, here is what I would do. Contrary to what you may guess about me, I have had a problem with the financial world and its operations for a long time. I think a lot of what they do is just a scheme with little value to anyone but themselves. Contrary to assertions made earlier in the thread, many people have known about this basically forever but especially in the last decade. The Enron and Worldcom scandals shook the financial world, ruined many lives, and resulted in reforms especially in the Sarbane Oxley act. I work under those laws in my job as a consultant and they are harsh and effective at preventing corporate malfeasance at the individual company level. > > I would propose something similar for the financial sector as a whole. A large and comprehensive federal act . . . OK, your approach is to come up with a package of specific proposals, technically-sound regulatory solutions to prevent more Wall Street craziness. At least that show you’re thinking. However, there are several points you have overlooked: 1. That’s already **covered.** It has been tried and is being tried. As Betsy Reed writes in [_The Nation:_](http://www.thenation.com/blog/163762/occupy-wall-street-why-so-many-demands-demands) > [@](#): > > It’s not that the demands being suggested by OWS’s volunteer policy advisors in the blogosphere are not worthy ideas. At a time when we desperately need to rein in financial speculation and change the incentives on Wall Street, a financial transactions tax is a terrific policy proposal. Dean Baker has been talking about it for years. The thing is, we on the left don’t have a scarcity of policy ideas. We are positively bursting with them. Create a housing trust fund! A national infrastructure bank! And, yes, sure, eliminate the carried interest loophole so fat cats don’t get a bigger tax break than working people. (Some even have more radical ideas, which are quite sensible too.) But at best, we get a polite hearing for these ideas, which then fade away or are hopelessly watered down. We simply lack the power to put them into practice. > > And in the recent past, even the most smoothly organized, expertly messaged mass demonstrations have not made a whit of difference in this regard. Consider the last big march on Wall Street this past May 12. The coalition behind it was admirably diverse, including unions like the teachers and SEIU’s 1199, as well as local community organizations such as Citizen Action NY, Coalition for the Homeless and Community Voices Heard. The “May 12 Coalition,” which turned out thousands of protesters on the appointed day, presented the Bloomberg administration with a proposal that exhibited great thoughtfulness in its rigor and detail, asking banks like JPMorgan, Bank of America, and Morgan Stanley to take a 20 percent cut in their contracts to handle functions like child support disbursements or income tax remittances for the city. This would have saved $120 million, part of $1.5 billion that could have been extracted from the banking sector to prevent the city from having to slash education and social services, according to the coalition. > > The May 12 marchers were many things the OWS protesters are not. They were orderly; they truly represented ordinary New Yorkers. They were concrete: they had a plan. But needless to say, the Bloomberg administration did not immediately recognize their plan’s superior logic and fairness and adopt it as a new template. In fact, it received no attention in the wake of the march. It was such a nonstarter that the city didn’t even bother to respond to it. And the media snoozed. 1. You are offering solutions to the **wrong problems.** You really think this is about a few reckless CEOs in Manhattan making decisions that landed us in the shit? The problems the OWSers are protesting are systemic and go back decades, and the financial and security industries are only part of it. It’s about the **classes,** stupid!\* \*Indispensable cap to the phrase, no actual flaming intended. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/39 "2011-11-10T17:11:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Phase 1: Put up tents, sit in them, refuse to leave. > Phase 2: ??? > Phase 3: Profit! > [@SeldomSeen](#): > > The inference is (I guess) that the OWS crowd hopes to turn a profit by sitting in tents. Apparently you read more into it than I did. Since I’m guessing you’re missing the cultural reference here, and thus misunderstanding the point being made, it’s a reference to an episode of South Park called Gnomes. Here’s a good link explaining it: [Gnomes (South Park) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnomes_(South_Park)) Basically, the “Profit!” line is just part of the reference and the general point is that there’s a disconnect between the action being taken and the desired outcome. I think that that poster was more or less just agreeing with the OP that he doesn’t see how the actions being taken by the OWS people will have the desired effect. Of course, the irony is that the gnomes are most likely a reference to the sort of business practices that the OWS people are protesting. ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/40 "2011-11-10T19:52:57Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > “99%” refers to the increasing concentration of wealth in the top 1% of the American population, which I’m sure you’ve heard about already. They’re staking out a position on behalf of the people in whom the wealth is not concentrated. I suppose that means the answer to your question is neither, since I think most people involved in the protests would claim common ground with billions of people internationally, but the specific reference is to the American distribution of economic power. It can also refer to anyone making less than $10 mil a year, which is 99% of Americans. Personally, I find that kind of income absurd. What would you have to do to make that kind of money nowadays? Invent cold fusion? Cure cancer? AIDS? Develop superluminous travel? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191.md?page=3)