# How is OWS Supposed to Work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191 "2011-11-07T19:11:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/61 "2011-11-12T22:12:19Z")
By that standard, Sarah Palin has had about 100x the impact. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/62 "2011-11-12T22:19:32Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Meh. The core of the OWS message resonates with the public. From [here](http://www.uml.edu/News/press-releases/2011/Occupy-Poll-PressRelease.aspx): > People generally think corporations have too much influence and ordinary Americans too little- basically that we’re too close to ‘corporatocracy’, awkward as that word is. Unions also have general popular support. > > It isn’t really a contest against the Tea Party as far as I can see, but what TPer messages enjoy such broad support? > > Call them losers if you want, they reflect Americans’ opinions. Time will tell if they have any impact. Yes, I think that people who decide to block a woman in a wheelchair in a building and prevent her from leaving because she attended a conference honoring Ronald Reagan are losers. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1K1r\_w8u38](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1K1r_w8u38) Perhaps you think the protesters in this video are heroes, but no I have no problem calling them bitter white losers and if you think that most Americans when they see crap like this aren’t going to side with the woman in the wheelchair then you’re delusional. And yes, people like the kid in the video below are losers. [http://www.youtube.com/user/NROVideos#p/u/12/wrPGoPFRUdc](http://www.youtube.com/user/NROVideos#p/u/12/wrPGoPFRUdc) I challenge anyone to watch this video and explain why the kid isn’t a moron and why most Americans wouldn’t view him as an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/63 "2011-11-12T22:45:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, I think that people who decide to block a woman in a wheelchair in a building and prevent her from leaving because she attended a conference honoring Ronald Reagan are losers… Maybe that’s just how she rolls. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/64 "2011-11-12T22:52:06Z")
Hasn’t it occurred to you that if these incidents were truly representative of the OWS, there wouldn’t be a smattering of videos being passed around amongst eager hands, but thousands of them? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/65 "2011-11-12T23:03:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Hasn’t it occurred to you that if these incidents were truly representative of the OWS, there wouldn’t be a smattering of videos being passed around amongst eager hands, but thousands of them? So then you’re saying that the Occupy Washington folks have been roundly condemned by the wider OWS movement as have the bitter white losers of Occupy Oakland? There’s a reason the American public has been souring on them and their unfavorables have been rising steadily while their favorables have declined. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/66 "2011-11-12T23:32:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then you’re saying that the Occupy Washington folks have been roundly condemned by the wider OWS movement as have the bitter white losers of Occupy Oakland? > > There’s a reason the American public has been souring on them and their unfavorables have been rising steadily while their favorables have declined. [Apparently not.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#Public_opinion) > [@](#): > > **Public opinion** > > An October 18 Gallup poll found that 22 percent of Americans agree with the protest’s goals, while 15 percent disapprove and the remaining 61% say they don’t know enough to decide. Gallup found that Democrats, Independents and Republicans all follow the news about OWS in equal numbers, and those who closely followed OWS were more likely to approve of its goals and methods.[81] An October 13 survey by TIME magazine found that 54 percent of Americans have a favorable impression of the protests, while 23 percent have a negative impression. An NBC/Wall Street Journal survey found that 37 percent of respondents “tend to support” the movement, while 18 percent “tend to oppose” it.[82] An October United Technologies/National Journal Congressional poll found that 59 percent of Americans agree with the movement while 31 percent disagree.[83] > > An October Quinnipiac University poll of New York City voters found that 67 percent of New Yorkers approved of the movement with 23 percent disapproving. The results also found 87 percent of New Yorkers find it OK that they are protesting.[84] Despite media criticism that the protestors views are incoherent, the poll also found that 72 percent of New York City voters understand their views.[85] An October CBS News/New York Times polls found 43% of Americans agree with Occupy Wall Street while 27% disagree.[86] An October Rasmussen poll found a plurality of Americans approved of the movement with 33 percent favorable, 27 percent unfavorable and 40 percent with no opinion.[87] Not bad for the first two months. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/67 "2011-11-12T23:50:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Apparently not.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#Public_opinion) > > Not bad for the first two months. Your information is horrifically out of date. In post 58, I pointed out that the most recent poll, done on November 3, showed that by a 39-30 percent margin they were viewed unfavorably by the American public. [http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1670](http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1670) That said, your post referring to October polls, their unfavorables were much lower reinforces the point that their unfavorables are shooting through the roof. In retrospect, thanks for supporting the argument I was advancing and providing further support for it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/68 "2011-11-13T02:39:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then you’re saying that the Occupy Washington folks have been roundly condemned by the wider OWS movement as have the bitter white losers of Occupy Oakland?.. Why, no, didn’t say anything even remotely resemblilng that. I thought I spoke pretty plainly, but if there’s something there that you have difficulty grasping, please let me know. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/69 "2011-11-13T02:55:48Z")
The concepts they are pushing like taxing the rich , have lot higher polling. That is true in both parties. Bringing back financial regulation like Glass/Steagal, prosecting bankers , a moratorium on foreclosures and many other viewpoints are backed by strong majorities. The Occupy Movement is not a political party and has no candidates, so it matters little how much you people like them. They are not running. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/70 "2011-11-13T03:42:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, I think that people who decide to block a woman in a wheelchair in a building and prevent her from leaving because she attended a conference honoring Ronald Reagan are losers. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1K1r\_w8u38](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1K1r_w8u38) > > Perhaps you think the protesters in this video are heroes, but no I have no problem calling them bitter white losers and if you think that most Americans when they see crap like this aren’t going to side with the woman in the wheelchair then you’re delusional. > > And yes, people like the kid in the video below are losers. > > [http://www.youtube.com/user/NROVideos#p/u/12/wrPGoPFRUdc](http://www.youtube.com/user/NROVideos#p/u/12/wrPGoPFRUdc) > > I challenge anyone to watch this video and explain why the kid isn’t a moron and why most Americans wouldn’t view him as an idiot. It is too bad that woman got stuck in a building. I can’t agree with her statements that the movement is all about entitlement vs. empowerment though. That’s the same tired tripe we keep hearing over and over from the right, maybe to change the subject away from the wealthy’s sense of entitlement to low low taxes and hundreds of billions of dollars from the US treasury in the form of bank bailouts and etc? As for the second kid- is he a loser? He does seem pretty vapid just wishing for free tuition without any reason whatsoever behind it. But- the guy is out there talking with everyone else with a grievance hashing it out. Maybe he’ll come out of his protest experience with clearer ideas about what his problem is. I do think that is a part of the function of these protests, for people to gather together and just communicate with one another in an organic, not-media-mediated way. Ultimately I think you are neg-cherrypicking. The examples you are choosing aren’t lies, but you do seem to be ignoring what official announcements have been made about the movement’s goals and itinerary. The convention doesn’t even start until July 4. A rigid structure/agenda at this point would be counter-productive, since one of the main goals of the general assembly meetings is to come to true democratic consenses on various topics, which will be brought by delegates later to synthesize into a platform. Meanwhile all these people cause a scene and attract an awful lot of attention. Some of it is for stupid crap, and if we’ve learned one thing from the GOP over the last few years, it is that stupid crap is a great way to keep attention focused on your group. You don’t like them. Ok, I can accept that. Do you agree with _nothing_ they want? Do you not understand it? Should no one ever be bitter? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/71 "2011-11-13T03:47:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That’s complete crap. > > A recent poll by Quinnipiac found that by a margin of 39 to 30 Americans had an unfavorable view of the Occupy movement. So, about 3 in 8 approve according to your numbers. If people endorsing these views held that proportion of congressional seats, I think things would be working out quite differently. 3 out of 8 hardly amounts to shut-up-and go-home numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/72 "2011-11-13T04:05:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Why, no, didn’t say anything even remotely resemblilng that. I thought I spoke pretty plainly, but if there’s something there that you have difficulty grasping, please let me know. Well, you seemed to be claiming that the people behaving in thuggish manner in the video weren’t representative of the OWS movement and that most would condemn their behavior. Presumably then they’d disagree with the actions of the Occupy DC and the Occupy Oakland movements. Are you backtracking and saying that these guys are somewhat representative of the OWS movement and shouldn’t be condemned. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player\_embedded&v=prgkEAuSQT0](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=prgkEAuSQT0) Personally I’d agree with Will Wilkinson, who used to be an enthusiastic supporter of the OWS movement. [http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/11/occupy-wall-street](http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/11/occupy-wall-street) > [@](#): > > I think this is the way the AFP event appears from the prevailing perspective of the OWS left: The hated Koch brothers are paragons of the nefarious 1%. The many think tanks and advocacy organisations they support are front groups designed primarily to advance corporate interests behind a thin veil of libertarian and conservative ideology. The citizen-supporters of these groups, such as those attending the “Tribute to Ronald Reagan” dinner at the AFP summit, are at best unwitting tools of the oligarchs. At worst, they are knowing collaborators. > \*\* > And here’s the way it looks to the rest of us: A bunch of committed, mostly well-to-do conservatives went to a totally anodyne event organised by a conservative advocacy group in celebration of a popular conservative president, and they got harassed in a pretty frightening way by OWS-affiliated ideologues who seem to think they have the right to intimidate people whose politics they happen to disagree with.\*\* > \*\* > Say what you will about the tea-party movement, but I don’t recall tea-party types storming the doors at progressive events and knocking down old ladies.\*\* I think it’s safe to say that very few Americans approve of this sort of behaviour. Americans disagree sharply about a whole array of issues, but we expect to work out our disagreements in a civilised fashion, with a minimum of social disturbance. To assemble peaceably is a basic American right and a venerable tradition. To get together and aggressively antagonise other people peaceably assembled because you’ve decided they’re the enemy is not. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/73 "2011-11-13T04:09:33Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The concepts they are pushing like taxing the rich , have lot higher polling. That is true in both parties. Bringing back financial regulation like Glass/Steagal, prosecting bankers , a moratorium on foreclosures and many other viewpoints are backed by strong majorities. The Occupy Movement is not a political party and has no candidates, so it matters little how much you people like them. They are not running. What do you mean “You people”. You’ve also revealed their weaknesses by conceding that unlike the Tea Party they don’t have any political candidates and therefore are extremely unlikely to have remotely the political influence of the Tea Baggers. In this regard the old white losers seem to be doing a better job than the bitter white losers. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/74 "2011-11-13T04:14:29Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > So, about 3 in 8 approve according to your numbers. If people endorsing these views held that proportion of congressional seats, I think things would be working out quite differently. 3 out of 8 hardly amounts to shut-up-and go-home numbers. Your math is off. Only 3 out of 10 approve and a larger number disapprove. Moreover you’ve completely backtracked from your earlier claim > [@](#): > > **Try2B Comprehensive** > A majority of Americans view the OWS movement in a positive light. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/75 "2011-11-13T04:37:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, you seemed to be claiming that the people behaving in thuggish manner in the video weren’t representative of the OWS movement and that most would condemn their behavior. > > Presumably then they’d disagree with the actions of the Occupy DC and the Occupy Oakland movements. > > Are you backtracking and saying that these guys are somewhat representative of the OWS movement and shouldn’t be condemned… Ah! I see the problem. You are reading words that aren’t there. What I said centered around quantification, the numbers of such incidents. If they were as common as you wish to insinuate, then there would be a veritable avalanche, it would look like a big city sports riot. Which it doesn’t. I made no comment whatsoever about how other OWS locations might respond, or should respond. Those comments exist only in your imagination. Try as I might, there is no way for me to backtrack on something I never said. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/76 "2011-11-13T04:45:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ah! I see the problem. You are reading words that aren’t there. > > What I said centered around quantification, the numbers of such incidents. If they were as common as you wish to insinuate, then there would be a veritable avalanche, it would look like a big city sports riot. Which it doesn’t. > > I made no comment whatsoever about how other OWS locations might respond, or should respond. Those comments exist only in your imagination. Try as I might, there is no way for me to backtrack on something I never said. Apologies for assuming based on what you said that you objected to the thuggish behavior of the Occupy DC and the Occupy Oakland movement. I guess I’ll ask then, since you don’t condemn the trapping of the wheelchair bound lady in a building and the knocking down of some elderly women just because they attended a conference honoring Ronald Reagan, then do you endorse such behavior? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/77 "2011-11-13T05:17:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Your math is off. > > Only 3 out of 10 approve and a larger number disapprove. > > Moreover you’ve completely backtracked from your earlier claim I just thought it would be more convincing if I built my argument with your numbers. You said: > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > A recent poll by Quinnipiac found that by a margin of 39 to 30 Americans had an unfavorable view of the Occupy movement. So out of 69, 30 have a not-unfavorable view of the movement. I should have said 3 out of 7. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/78 "2011-11-13T05:27:44Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I just thought it would be more convincing if I built my argument with your numbers. You said: > So out of 69, 30 have a not-unfavorable view of the movement. I should have said 3 out of 7. Then you misunderstood what I said and misunderstood the poll. 39% disapproved of the OWS movement, 30% approved and 30% didn’t have an opinion on them. In short, only 3 out of every 10 Americans approved of them and more disapproved of them. Also, as Brainglutton’s polls from October shows, their unfavorables have nearly tripled in less than a month. In short, they should definitely quit while they’re ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/79 "2011-11-13T16:48:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Then you misunderstood what I said and misunderstood the poll. > > 39% disapproved of the OWS movement, 30% approved and 30% didn’t have an opinion on them. > > In short, only 3 out of every 10 Americans approved of them and more disapproved of them. > > Also, as Brainglutton’s polls from October shows, their unfavorables have nearly tripled in less than a month. > > In short, they should definitely quit while they’re ahead. Ok, 3 in 10 approved of OWS, with another third undecided. That means about 100 million Americans approve you know. But! If the rules are that you have to quit when your poll numbers drop, well just look at the most recent CBS poll results for Congress’ approval rating, from [here](http://www.pollingreport.com/CongJob.htm): Can you believe it? 9% approve, 83% disapprove of the job Congress is doing. I guess we have two groups here that need to quit. Congress first, that will solve a lot of problems. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/80 "2011-11-13T19:33:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Are you backtracking and saying that these guys are somewhat representative of the OWS movement and shouldn’t be condemned. If it is representation you’re looking for, [Occupy Denver has chosen a representative](http://politicalirony.com/2011/11/09/bark-more-wag-less-occupy-denver/): > [@](#): > > In response to Denver Mayor Michael Hancock’s insistence that Occupy Denver choose leadership to deal with City and State officials, and drawing inspiration from the notion that corporations are people, Occupy Denver’s General Assembly has elected a leader: Shelby, a three year old Border Collie. “Shelby is closer to a person than any corporation: She can bleed, she can breed, and she can show emotion. Either Shelby is a person, or corporations aren’t people,” said a Shelby supporter at the time of her election. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191.md?page=5)