# How is OWS Supposed to Work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191 "2011-11-07T19:11:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/81 "2011-11-13T20:54:31Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > If it is representation you’re looking for, [Occupy Denver has chosen a representative](http://politicalirony.com/2011/11/09/bark-more-wag-less-occupy-denver/): Like I said: They have turned themselves into a circus side show. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/82 "2011-11-13T21:23:59Z")
It must be hard for you, given your enthusiastic support early on, to see it come to this. Need a moment? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/83 "2011-11-13T23:31:58Z")
The dog is perfect. The 99 percent have lots of complaints . But when your home is being foreclosed ,one rises to the top. When the mortgage company refuses to redo the mortgage ,even when the home is worth half what it was, that is your concern. When you can not find a job, even though you may be well qualified, that is what eats at you. If you have just graduated from college and have an educational mortgage to pay, and jobs are scarce, you worry about how you will get through that. When you are homeless and just looking for a way to survive through the night, school costs seem very unimportant. When the homeless get food, shelter and medical care at the occupy camps, the people providing it are able to escape their problems for awhile. Doing work for others does a person some good. Some campers see the income inequality as a harbinger of real trouble for the future of the country. They are trying to exert pressure on politicians to do right for all the citizens, not just the rich. The campers are voters too. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/84 "2011-11-14T02:03:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It must be hard for you, given your enthusiastic support early on, to see it come to this. Need a moment? I call it as I see it. Elect a dog to be your representative = Circus sideshow. Politics has nothing to do with it.c When my closest political allies do something like that, I will happily call them on it. ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/85 "2011-11-14T02:34:40Z")
_“And a dog shall lead them.”_ ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/86 "2011-11-14T03:55:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What do you mean “You people”. > You’ve also revealed their weaknesses by conceding that unlike the Tea Party they don’t have any political candidates and therefore are extremely unlikely to have remotely the political influence of the Tea Baggers. > > In this regard the old white losers seem to be doing a better job than the bitter white losers. Why is it a weakness? It is an educational movement sending a message to the politicians that continuing the present policies will result in them losing support and votes. That matters to politicians. Who are losers? By what standard are they losers? The movement has gone on for 6 weeks. That is a little too soon for a realistic appraisal. But they have already changed the dialogue. Politicians and officials have taken notice. It is a rousing success. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/87 "2011-11-14T04:49:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I call it as I see it. Elect a dog to be your representative = Circus sideshow. Politics has nothing to do with it.c > > When my closest political allies do something like that, I will happily call them on it. Politics has everything to do with it! Start with why does the mayor get to decide whether or not a group of people comply with his notions about order and organization? Are they breaking some sort of law with this experiment? Since when is a municipal mayor so empowered? I saw Michelle Bachman, Presidential candidate on TV the other night. And you’re telling me that you blame the Occupados for making a side show out of our politics? You know the old joke, the first thing about teaching a mule something is to get his attention, that’s why you have the two-by-four. To get his attention. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/88 "2011-11-14T05:38:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Why is it a weakness? It is an educational movement sending a message to the politicians that continuing the present policies will result in them losing support and votes. That matters to politicians. > Who are losers? By what standard are they losers? The movement has gone on for 6 weeks. That is a little too soon for a realistic appraisal. > But they have already changed the dialogue. Politicians and officials have taken notice. It is a rousing success. Explain what you meant by the phrase “you people” and who the “you people” referred to and I’ll be happy to respond. BTW, I understand that white people often get upset when non-whites have the temerity to act as if they’re equals rather than people who need whites to save them or rule them. Apologies if I’ve offended your sensibilities. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/89 "2011-11-14T06:07:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Politics has everything to do with it! Politics has nothing to with whether I call something a circus sideshow or not. If it’s a sideshow, I’m going to call it, whether I agree with the politics of the sideshow or not. > [@](#): > > Start with why does the mayor get to decide whether or not a group of people comply with his notions about order and organization? Are they breaking some sort of law with this experiment? Since when is a municipal mayor so empowered? Since he was elected by the people. You know, the 99-percenters. The Occupiers were always breaking the law as soon as they decided to camp out in city parks. The fact that some mayors have restrained themselves for a time does not mean they must do so indefinitely. > [@](#): > > I saw Michelle Bachman, Presidential candidate on TV the other night. And you’re telling me that you blame the Occupados for making a side show out of our politics? You’re right. She’s not a sideshow. She’s all three rings of the whole circus. > [@](#): > > You know the old joke, the first thing about teaching a mule something is to get his attention, that’s why you have the two-by-four. To get his attention. OWS is firmly against your notions of cruelty to animals. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/90 "2011-11-14T06:21:23Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > If it is representation you’re looking for, [Occupy Denver has chosen a representative](http://politicalirony.com/2011/11/09/bark-more-wag-less-occupy-denver/): You just strengthened the case that the OWS movement is a bunch of spoiled, bitter white trash losers pissed off that life hasn’t gone the way they anticipated. The actions you describe are not those of pragmatic adults trying to influence public policy but of moronic teenagers who confuse shocking or outraging adults with accomplishing something. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/91 "2011-11-14T07:26:36Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > If it is representation you’re looking for, [Occupy Denver has chosen a representative](http://politicalirony.com/2011/11/09/bark-more-wag-less-occupy-denver/): Nice try. The **first** Nonhuman-American politician was [Pigasus!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigasus_(politics)) (A sow, BTW, though the Yippies called her a boar; couldn’t run a **female** candidate for POTUS then, there are limits!) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/92 "2011-11-14T07:29:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You just strengthened the case that the OWS movement is a bunch of spoiled, bitter white trash losers pissed off that life hasn’t gone the way they anticipated. > > The actions you describe are not those of pragmatic adults trying to influence public policy but of moronic teenagers who confuse shocking or outraging adults with accomplishing something. You’re confusing them with the Yippies, who never took politics as such seriously, but practiced politics as a form of street theater. OWS is not what you are describing. OWS is a lot more serious – because their concerns are not cultural but economic. Which doesn’t mean they can’t have some Yippie-school fun with it! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/93 "2011-11-14T07:34:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Politics has nothing to with whether I call something a circus sideshow or not. If it’s a sideshow, I’m going to call it, whether I agree with the politics of the sideshow or not. But it **is** a real political phenomenon and movement, and calling it a sideshow won’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/94 "2011-11-14T15:01:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You just strengthened the case that the OWS movement is a bunch of spoiled, bitter white trash losers pissed off that life hasn’t gone the way they anticipated. > > The actions you describe are not those of pragmatic adults trying to influence public policy but of moronic teenagers who confuse shocking or outraging adults with accomplishing something. Or… they have a point about corporate personhood and are all on board to the point that they all get the joke. Why do you keep calling them losers? Or… white trash 😕 The main reason I am not down there with them is that I have to work- a lot. Presumably lots of the protesters have been caught up in the recent unemployment wave. When unemployment jumps 5% in about a year and then stays there, it isn’t because an epidemic of ‘loseritis’ is sweeping the nation, it is because jobs are vanishing. In the context of decades of GOP ‘starve the beast’ strategies like cutting taxes on the wealthy and driving up the debt with stupid, endless wars, I’d be pissed off too if bankers crashed the economy and the message from the government was, ‘sorry, there isn’t anything we can do to help, we’re too busy with all this bullshit.’ I have a good job with health insurance and the whole 9 and I am still pissed off. I don’t see why a dog prank would top your list of gripes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/95 "2011-11-14T16:04:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But it **is** a real political phenomenon and movement, and calling it a sideshow won’t change that. The two are not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/96 "2011-11-14T16:56:49Z")
And there’s at least a couple common usages. You got the circus sideshow that is loud, colorful, and chaotic, and may, or may not, be a futile display of irrelevance. Another is a cavalcade of Diane Arbus mutations, such as the Republican debates, which inspire high levels of squick. Even as one feels compassion for the victims, one craves to look elsewhere. But I think either or both miss the mark. Both analogies point to questions of relevance, will the OWS movement lead to _effective_ political action, which is really just another way of asking when will they stop acting so silly and start playing by The Rules, so that they can co-opted and submerged, and their voices drowned out by Serious People saying very, very adult things. \*\*John \*\*wants to know when they will stop being so silly, and engage the System as it is, like normal grown-ups. When will they recognize that the System, for all its minor faults and failures, has brought our nation to the happy position it currently enjoys! With, admittedly, a few minor faults and failures, the consequences of which tend to fall on our less worthy citizens. When will they accept reality, and submit themselves to order and reason, to effect whatever minor cosmetic changes are possible, rather than flailing about looking for some new solution, some new approach. Why can’t they simply be vaguely liberal, in a strictly non-partisan fashion, and work for such changes as are practical, and leave real questions to the sober, sombre judgment of the grown-ups, who have guided our country to this happy, happy place. Without position papers, and well-dressed spokesmen speaking in tones of moderation and calm deliberation, they are but a flash in the brain-pan, doomed to collapse in a matter of a couple days. OK, couple weeks. Two months, tops. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/97 "2011-11-14T16:59:34Z")
Like most of your attempts to read my mind or paraphrase my position, you got it wrong. Feel free to keep trying, though. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/98 "2011-11-14T17:10:41Z")
No, no, I am dismissed, brushed aside as unworthy of serious consideration. I will slink away. Perhaps some day, I will have something mature and adult to say. Kinda hope not, but, we’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191/99 "2011-11-14T17:48:53Z")
Michael Lind **(not** a radical leftist himself) [writes:](http://www.salon.com/2011/10/18/occupation_and_realignment/singleton/) > [@](#): > > There is a third, more promising possibility. Instead of provoking a conservative backlash, or being co-opted by the existing progressive identity-politics machine, the Occupy Wall Street movement could indirectly benefit the American center-left by re-creating an American radical left. > > \ > > For most of the 20th century, the American center-left was attacked simultaneously by the radical left and the reactionary right. This allowed progressive-liberals to position themselves as the reasonable alternative to the extremes of socialism and plutocracy. > > \ > > What remained on the radical left, after the collapse of Marxism and other, more utopian versions of socialism, were identity politics and Malthusian gloom-and-doom environmentalism. Both of these were easily co-opted by the economically conservative neoliberals who took over former progressive parties in the Atlantic world like America’s Democrats and Britain’s Labour Party. It costs corporations and governments nothing to “celebrate diversity.” And financiers in Wall Street and the City of London figured out ways they could reap windfall profits from Green measures like cap-and-trade on greenhouse gas emissions, renewable energy mandates imposed on utility companies, and government subsidies to renewable energy start-ups. > > Because there was no longer any significant economic radicalism after the Cold War, old-fashioned economic progressivism — the living wage, universal social insurance, equality of educational opportunity — became defined as “the radical left” in the 1990s and 2000s. Meanwhile, Reagan-Thatcher conservatism, which had been the right-most right during the 1970s and 1980s, was out-flanked by an even more extreme free market fundamentalism, symbolized by the Tea Party — a further right. > > The appearance of the further right, and the disappearance of the far left, shifted the entire spectrum to the right for the last two decades. New Deal-style progressivism, once the center between Marxism and conservatism, became the left. Reagan-Thatcher conservatism, having been the right, became the new center; and a new, radical economic libertarian right, far more extreme than Reaganism and Thatcherism, became the new right. > > \ > > The Occupy Wall Street movement has the potential to help the center-left, even if some of its activists despise the center-left the way that the New Left in the 1960s and 1970s dismissed progressive-liberals like the Kennedys and Johnson as sinister “corporate liberals” promoting the “warfare-welfare state.” The reemergence of a radical economic left can create a fourth point on the political spectrum, changing the relative position of all other points. The Tea Party right, now the mainstream right, would become the far right. Today’s center, shared by Clinton and Obama with Reagan and the Bushes, would become the new center-right. And the new center-left would be something like New Deal liberalism — to the left of Clinton and Obama, but to the right of an anti-capitalist left. Better yet, if the public tired of Tea Party conservatism, the far right could implode and the new “far right” would be moderate economic conservatism of the Reagan-Bush-Clinton-Obama variety. What until recently has been the left — old-fashioned social democratic reformism in the New Deal tradition — might once again be the center. > > Good cop, bad cop works in politics as well as in police interrogations on television. A reformist center-left benefits from having an angry radical partner that it must restrain. Whether it takes the form of the Occupy Wall Street movement or something else, a radical economic left that despises weak progressive reform can inadvertently strengthen the position of the reformist progressives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-ows-supposed-to-work/602191.md?page=4)