# How is Scribd legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 14, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677 "2021-08-14T19:47:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/21 "2021-08-16T17:15:05Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Are you suggesting that because it acts as an archive/library, the Internet Archive is totally legal? If so, I’d like to know what features distinguish an archive/library from a piracy site. I am extremely not qualified to interpret the legal definition, nor what qualifies for fair use, safe harbour, etc. This is getting out of the scope of General Questions, but there are some features distinguishing the real piratey pirate sites where they distribute (not necessarily to the public) videos freshly stolen from Hollywood studio servers, from sites like The Pirate Bay where they don’t store anything but just index links to whatever the users post, from sites like the Moscow University/Library Genesis collection where they _do_ have a huge archive but don’t care about the DMCA because they are in Russia (and, incidentally, at least some part of their content was originally pirated, or so it seems). The Internet Archive (San Francisco) has always claimed (and clearly posted) that their content is only available under fair use, but as many people who have been expensively sued can testify, what constitutes fair use is not always black and white and often comes down to how motivated people are to sue you and how much money you are willing to spend to defend yourself. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/22 "2021-08-16T17:17:25Z")
[Archive.org](http://Archive.org) is a place to find lots of the year 2000+ years of the Howard Stern Show. Unlike YouTube this stuff never gets taken down. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/23 "2021-08-16T17:18:21Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > You’ve explained why libraries are legal. But just because they are legal, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the book publishing industry is happy about it. I get why they might not be happy about it, because community sharing of a single copy of a book to 100 people doesn’t make any more money than selling it to 1 person. But I was responding to a characterization by @jjakucyk that the industry thinks of it as piracy. In which the industry is doesn’t have a leg to stand on. Nobody goes to the library and photocopies a whole book. That would cost many times more than buying the book. I’m sure the industry isn’t happy, but tough shit. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/24 "2021-08-16T17:22:38Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Nobody goes to the library and photocopies a whole book. That would cost many times more than buying the book. OTOH I have been to research libraries where the _librarian_ had photocopied a whole, rare or damaged out-of-print book, bound, and shelved it. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/25 "2021-08-16T18:01:32Z")
I knew I mentioned somewhere recently where I found one of my article uploads still on Scribd 10+ years later: > [@Jupiter as a star?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jupiter-as-a-star/928441/25): > > I found the Analog one very quickly on the first page of results when I had the right name. Scanned and uploaded by me, actually, more than 10 years ago before Scribd became pay-to-play. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/26 "2021-08-16T18:10:39Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Then why was Napster taken down, which did not even store any material on its own servers? Napster took its service offline in order to comply with an order to block access to copyrighted material. They then settled a lawsuit with music industry sources and attempted to relaunch as a paid service. That did not go over so well with their users, and they eventually went bankrupt. > [@DPRK](#): > > I have been to research libraries where the _librarian_ had photocopied a whole, rare or damaged out-of-print book, bound, and shelved it. Was it still under copyright? A lot of rare out of print books are old enough not to be. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/27 "2021-08-16T18:26:27Z")
Not all publishers dislike libraries. The science fiction publisher Baen has stated that libraries don’t actually cost them sales, and have put their money where their mouth is by making a lot of their own works freely available online. The theory is that readers will read those free works (which are usually the first book or two of a series), and then be interested enough to seek out further volumes in a form that Baen will be paid for. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/28 "2021-08-16T19:16:13Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > OTOH I have been to research libraries where the _librarian_ had photocopied a whole, rare or damaged out-of-print book, bound, and shelved it. They shouldn’t do that as a means to create a new copy of the book. I was thinking of a patron who has to pump a dime per page into a photocopy machine to copy a Harry Potter book. ---
**Author:** ![Tabco](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tabco/32/7644_2.png) [@Tabco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabco)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/29 "2021-08-16T19:26:24Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I don’t know if Scribd actually complies with the DMCA; could be they just haven’t gotten sued by someone with sufficiently big pockets to take them out of business yet. But in principle they could be just fine. I mentioned earlier that someone uploaded a document of mine to the site. I have since filed a DMCA request and they took the document down immediately. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/30 "2021-08-16T20:37:27Z")
The system works! ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/31 "2021-08-16T20:56:46Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > OTOH I have been to research libraries where the _librarian_ had photocopied a whole, rare or damaged out-of-print book, bound, and shelved it. This is allowed under copyright law ([17 USC 108c](https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title17-section108&num=0&edition=prelim)). > (c) The right of reproduction under this section applies to three copies or phonorecords of a published work duplicated solely for the purpose of replacement of a copy or phonorecord that is damaged, deteriorating, lost, or stolen, or if the existing format in which the work is stored has become obsolete, if- > > (1) the library or archives has, after a reasonable effort, determined that an unused replacement cannot be obtained at a fair price; and > > (2) any such copy or phonorecord that is reproduced in digital format is not made available to the public in that format outside the premises of the library or archives in lawful possession of such copy. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/32 "2021-08-17T19:16:29Z")
In the UK, authors make a small amount of money each time their book is borrowed (inc ebooks). [Cite](https://www2.societyofauthors.org/where-we-stand/public-lending-right-plr/) It’s not a lot, but it’s not nothing either. I don’t know if something similar exists in the US. That means the publishers probably don’t get any extra money from libraries directly, but their writers aren’t very likely to be lobbying libraries to have their books removed. ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/33 "2021-08-17T20:43:19Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > In the UK, authors make a small amount of money each time their book is borrowed (inc ebooks). [Cite](https://www2.societyofauthors.org/where-we-stand/public-lending-right-plr/) > > It’s not a lot, but it’s not nothing either. > > I don’t know if something similar exists in the US. For physical books, no. Thanks to the first sale doctrine, US libraries don’t owe anything further once they’ve purchased the book for the standard retail price. It’s a different story for ebooks; the first sale doctrine doesn’t apply to those. Libraries are paying high prices—typically three to five times retail—to license ebooks for a limited period (usually two years). ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/34 "2021-08-17T20:47:51Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > For physical books, no. Thanks to the first sale doctrine, US libraries don’t owe anything further once they’ve purchased the book for the standard retail price. Thank you for the info. That’s not a good deal for authors, or for libraries really. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/35 "2021-08-17T21:50:11Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > In the UK, authors make a small amount of money each time their book is borrowed (inc ebooks). [Cite](https://www2.societyofauthors.org/where-we-stand/public-lending-right-plr/) From your cite, it looks like that wasn’t the case before 1979, right? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/36 "2021-08-17T22:27:02Z")
Probably? That’s over 40 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/37 "2021-08-17T22:55:40Z")
[quote=“SciFiSam, post:32, topic:948677”] In the UK, authors make a small amount of money each time their book is borrowed (inc ebooks). [Cite](https://www2.societyofauthors.org/where-we-stand/public-lending-right-plr/)[/quote] That’s very interesting. This American had no idea. I’m curious where that money comes from. In the US, there’s no fee when a person borrows a paper book from a public library. My guess is that those UK payments come from the same source (taxes? donations?) that pays for the library’s new-books budget. Or are there fees that borrowers must pay? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/38 "2021-08-17T23:27:47Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > That’s very interesting. This American had no idea. > I’m curious where that money comes from. In the US, there’s no fee when a person borrows a paper book from a public library. My guess is that those UK payments come from the same source (taxes? donations?) that pays for the library’s new-books budget. Or are there fees that borrowers must pay? There aren’t any fees to borrow books (paper or ebooks) in the UK. I’m not sure who actually pays for the PLR fees, but it looks like it probably comes from the Department of Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, which gets its funding from the general tax pot. It’s a teeny tiny amount compared to the overall budget for that dept. [https://www.bl.uk/plr/about-us](https://www.bl.uk/plr/about-us) ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/39 "2021-08-18T00:15:47Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Are you suggesting that because it acts as an archive/library, the Internet Archive is totally legal? If so, I’d like to know what features distinguish an archive/library from a piracy site. > > I’m glad to hear that you went to the effort of sending them documents that they digitized with your permission, but that wasn’t my experience. I made a website for my family in the 1990s on Geocities, and it ended up on Internet Archive. On the one hand, I am personally glad they did it, because otherwise it might have been lost - and in fact that’s what an archive is for, right? But on the other hand, they did it without my permission, and although **I** don’t mind, I can easily imagine others who **would** mind. Assuming for the sake of the argument that the Internet Archive is a legitimate library, then an author’s permission or lack thereof is irrelevant. Physical libraries do not need to ask an author’s permission to buy his books. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677/40 "2021-08-18T00:36:00Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Then why was Napster taken down, which did not even store any material on its own servers? Napster stored a central directory. This was how/why, at the time, takedown was legally possible. In response, people developed torrent systems that did not use a stored central directory. Ironically, the central directory meant that Napster could have developed as a paid copyright service, and torrents voided that opportunity. But the music companies are not / were not copyright collection services, they exist to market and promote music. The sin of Napster was cutting the music companies out of marketing and promotion. They did not _wish_ to do a copyright deal with Napster. Historically, the music companies weren’t able to stop file sharing, and in the end they choose to do deals with iTunes and YouTube. And one of the important services iTunes and YouTube perform is market segmentation, blocking access from different markets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-scribd-legal/948677.md?page=3)