# How is "shutting down the government" a winning strategy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 18, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152 "2013-09-18T16:40:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/81 "2013-09-20T23:01:12Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But not by holding the continuing resolution hostage. If they want to pass a bill in the House, pass a bill in the Senate, and get it signed by the President, that is fair game. But this extortion is not just unfair, it is contradictory to the constitutional legislative process. > [@adaher](#): > > I agree, it’s a tactic that should only be used if the other side is in a politically untenable position and can’t oppose you. > > that’s why i can’t condemn it entirely just yet. You agree with Fear Itself that it is unfair extortion contrary to the constitutional legislative process, so you only want them to use it if it will work? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/82 "2013-09-20T23:08:49Z")
Not on the debt limit. The debt limit should not be screwed with, not only because it courts economic disaster, but also because the money in question has already been appropriated. If REpublicans didn’t want to raise the debt limit, they shouldn’t have appropriated money that took us over the debt limit. However, on the CR, there’s no disaster and no money appropriated yet. And the health care law’s funding is 100% germane to the CR, so unlike with the debt limit it’s not trying to extract an unrelated concession on a must-pass bill. Secondly, the REpublicans may just get what they want. If Reid brings it up for a vote, who is to say that the GOP won’t get 5 red state Democratic votes to defund? Then it’s the President’s fault if there’s a shutdown. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/83 "2013-09-20T23:13:17Z")
So when you said you agree, what was it in the post you were agreeing with? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/84 "2013-09-20T23:22:49Z")
The red state Democrats are in a politically untenable position. Their constituents want them to oppose ACA, so there’s nothing wrong with Republicans putting them in a position where they have to either do what their constituents want or defy them. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/85 "2013-09-20T23:27:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The red state Democrats are in a politically untenable position. Their constituents want them to oppose ACA, so there’s nothing wrong with Republicans putting them in a position where they have to either do what their constituents want or defy them. So you did not agree with the post when you said “I agree”? That’s all I’m asking. Someone said it was unfair extortion and you said “I agree.” I’m not asking you a hard question here. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/86 "2013-09-20T23:30:02Z")
I agree with the principle, but in this case I’m not entirely opposed to it because the Democrats are in trouble over ACA and there’s nothing wrong with making them stand by it, repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/87 "2013-09-20T23:38:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree with the principle, but in this case I’m not entirely opposed to it because the Democrats are in trouble over ACA and there’s nothing wrong with making them stand by it, repeatedly. So, you agree in principle that it’s unfair extortion contrary to the constitutional legislative process, but that unfair extortion contrary to the constitutional legislative process is okay if it will work. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/88 "2013-09-20T23:39:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The red state Democrats are in a politically untenable position. Their constituents want them to oppose ACA, so there’s nothing wrong with Republicans putting them in a position where they have to either do what their constituents want or defy them. It puts blue state Republicans in the same dilemma. In the [House vote today](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57603877/house-passes-bill-funding-government-defunding-obamacare/), two Democrats voted for the bill, and one Republican voted against it. Pretty much a wash. Or were you talking about some other Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/89 "2013-09-21T00:08:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How much of that analysis derives from your feeling that fundamentally, having Obamacare is better than not having Obamacare? While I’m not a big fan of Obamacare and feel it has many, many flaws, if Obama care suddenly evaporates then as of January 1st I will have NO health insurance whatsoever. Given a spouse with chronic health problems requiring daily medication to keep his health from deteriorating it is currently in my self interest to want Obamacare to be funded at this point, flaws and all, as the alternative means choosing between rent and food or keeping my spouse healthy. So, yes, for some of us it _really is true_ that Obamacare is better than no Obamacare at this point. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/90 "2013-09-21T00:26:32Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, you agree in principle that it’s unfair extortion contrary to the constitutional legislative process, but that unfair extortion contrary to the constitutional legislative process is okay if it will work. It’s okay in this case because of the history of the ACA and the fact that Democrats continue to defy the will of the public. Or at least that’s what we Republicans believe( so as to avoid this thread getting sidetracked). Democrats use parliamentary tricks to pass the bill, no reason Republicans can’t resort to the same to defeat it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/91 "2013-09-21T00:41:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s okay in this case because of the history of the ACA and the fact that Democrats continue to defy the will of the public. Or at least that’s what we Republicans believe( so as to avoid this thread getting sidetracked). > > Democrats use parliamentary tricks to pass the bill, no reason Republicans can’t resort to the same to defeat it. There is no way they can defeat it with the parliamentary tricks seen so far. > **[ACA 'Defunded' by House, but May Yet Survive](https://www.medpagetoday.com/washington-watch/reform/41761)** > > WASHINGTON -- A spending bill passed by the House of Representatives on Friday strips funding from the Affordable Care Act and delays implementation for a year, but if the Senate doesn't go along, the > [@](#): > > If the government does shut down, many parts of the ACA would continue to roll out since many of the staples of the ACA are mandatory spending – such as Medicaid expansion and the health insurance exchange subsidies. They, like Medicare, will roll on whether or not the rest of the federal government is operating, several health policy experts said. It is hard to believe that the Republican leaders are not aware of that, this would end as a declared swing to Obamacare but they will hit the Department of Defense. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/92 "2013-09-21T00:48:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s okay in this case because of the history of the ACA and the fact that Democrats continue to defy the will of the public. I’m shocked. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/93 "2013-09-21T01:07:57Z")
Especially since he continues to assume (or assert) that the polls mean that the majority of the American people don’t want any changes to the health care system, and/or oppose the principles and goals of Obamacare, an assertion already opposed several times in this very thread, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/94 "2013-09-21T03:54:10Z")
[quote=“jasg, post:64, topic:669152”] [li]Less malpractice - Tort Reform[/li][/QUOTE] :rolleyes::mad: As a personal-injury lawyer, I say “tort reform” is cynical, dishonest, Republican bullshit. [Stephanie Mencimer](http://www.amazon.com/Blocking-Courthouse-Door-Republican-Corporate/dp/0743277015) has the right of it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/95 "2013-09-21T03:55:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s okay in this case because of the history of the ACA and the fact that Democrats continue to defy the will of the public. See [post #10](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16677929&postcount=10). ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/96 "2013-09-21T04:08:10Z")
Thus my addition that WE do believe it’s unpopular and are acting accordingly. We could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/97 "2013-09-21T04:21:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > See [post #10](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16677929&postcount=10). ♪ Why must BG post like that, why must BG chase the cat? ♫ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/98 "2013-09-21T04:38:32Z")
These “parliamentary tricks” the Dems used? Would that be voting? Or counting the votes? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/99 "2013-09-21T04:47:35Z")
The biggest one was revenue bills have to originate in the House. The health care bill originated in the Senate. But once Scott Brown was elected, the House had no choice but to pass the Senate health care bill. They used some legalistic bullshit to make it fit the letter of the law somehow, but it clearly was parliamentary gimmickry. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/100 "2013-09-21T05:13:02Z")
By contrast, the parliamentary gimmick seen recently by the Republicans looks like the “Winning” one from Charlie Sheen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152.md?page=6)