# How is "shutting down the government" a winning strategy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 18, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152 "2013-09-18T16:40:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/141 "2013-09-22T07:58:16Z")
As I said, both my Democrat Senator and my Democrat Representative are ON RECORD on their own websites as well as in the voting records of Congress as voting for Obamacare. The fact that they both think the law could be made better doesn’t change that they do, in fact, support it. They aren’t hiding their stance. What do you want, brands and tattoos? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/142 "2013-09-22T07:59:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If you’re sure of that fact, urge your Democratic Senators to campaign on their support of the ACA. Because they sure don’t want to do it. Because they don’t **have** to do it. It’s a done deal and the Senate is keeping it that way. (That said, I **still** want the Senate abolished.) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/143 "2013-09-22T08:12:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > As I said, both my Democrat Senator and my Democrat Representative are ON RECORD on their own websites as well as in the voting records of Congress as voting for Obamacare. The fact that they both think the law could be made better doesn’t change that they do, in fact, support it. They aren’t hiding their stance. What do you want, brands and tattoos? All I want is that when they are asked if they support Obamacare, that they say “yes”. Not what Colbert-Busch did, calling Obamacare “problematic”. That kind of terminology doesn’t imply that you’d like to change it, it implies opposition. Heidi Heitkamp was a little more candid, saying the law “needs to be fixed”. However, even that implies strongly that the law is broken, since things that work don’t need to be fixed. However, she did directly oppose repeal. Joe Manchin has been a harsh critic of Obamacare, and promised to “repeal the bad parts”. Actions Joe Manchin has taken to do so: zero. We could go on forever on how Democrats are waffling on Obamacare, or outright opposing it back home while supporting it in DC. if the public was truly behind ACA, I’m sure their highly paid political consultants would be advising them differently. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/144 "2013-09-22T08:13:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Because they don’t **have** to do it. It’s a done deal and the Senate is keeping it that way. (That said, I **still** want the Senate abolished.) Well of course they don’t have to do it, they can continue to lie and act as if some other party that they aren’t a part of did this. And then when conservative Democrats go down in 2014, liberals will perversely see that as vindication like they did in 2010 that the real problem is the Blue Dogs, not the leadership that forces them into situations that get them fired. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/145 "2013-09-22T11:05:24Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The Democrats hold the Senate and White House, that might give them the notion that in fact the majority fo the public IS behind the Democrats. > > Of course that can change, but right now I can see where someone just might have the silly notion that the party holding the presidency and one of the two components of Congress has some public backing. And the Dems got a majority of the popular vote in House races last November, too. But due to a combination of GOP gerrymandering and the natural overconsolidation of Dem voters in urban areas, a majority of the vote didn’t turn into a majority of the Congresscritters, alas. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/146 "2013-09-22T12:12:40Z")
The Senate is even more “gerrymandered”, albeit not intentionally. But that’s our system of government. Even the Electoral college is slightly gerrymandered to favor Republicans. If Democrats do things that make 30 out of 50 states really mad, that means serious trouble even if 60% of the population favored what they were doing. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/147 "2013-09-22T12:30:58Z")
What terrifies Republicans is the prospect of Obamacare succeeding. When people start getting refund checks because their insurer didn’t spend 80% of its income on providing care, when uninsured start signing up for the exchanges, when everybody knows someone still getting health care after hitting what previously was a lifetime benefit cap, attitudes will change. Until now, for every dollar spent promoting Obamacare, a thousand has been spent to demonize it. Demagogues prattled on about such things as “socialism”, “death panels”, and “government takeover of health care” unopposed by voices of reason. That will change. And when it does, casting dozens of votes to scuttle what will be a popular program isn’t going to be a vote-getter. Go ahead and think that 2014 is going to be a referendum on Obamacare, or the rights of mass murderers to arm themselves to the teeth. Go ahead and think that’s going to carry your Glorious Red Party on to perpetual power. You’ll be in for a great letdown. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/148 "2013-09-22T12:44:59Z")
Um. How is the senate gerrymandered? I’m not getting in this fight, but the senate is what it always is…two senators from each state without any districts. To define that as gerrymandered seems to stretch the definition. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/149 "2013-09-22T12:46:48Z")
Most of those people are all in favor of completely abolishing the government… …as long as their benefits checks, social security, medicare, farm subsidies, etc keep rolling in. Total disconnect on how that all works. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/150 "2013-09-22T13:03:13Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Um. How is the senate gerrymandered? I’m not getting in this fight, but the senate is what it always is…two senators from each state without any districts. To define that as gerrymandered seems to stretch the definition. He put it in quotes, meaning it wasn’t the literal definition, but I agree with him. The 70 million people residing in California, New York and Illinois get (in most cases) 6 Democratic senators to represent them. The people of Wyoming, Alaska, Idaho, Nebraska, Utah, Kansas, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Kentucky, South Carolina, Alabama, and Tennessee have about half the population of the three blue states, and have 24 senators that are just as reliably Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/151 "2013-09-22T13:31:16Z")
That’s certainly true (my favorite example is pointing out that DC and Wyoming have the same electoral votes despite DC having a greater population and less than 1/1400th the square mileage). Still, that can hardly be called gerrymandering because there’s no attempt (at least since the 1950s with Alaska and Hawaii) to take senate representation into account when designing states. I think it stretches the definition to the breaking point. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/152 "2013-09-22T17:24:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > He put it in quotes, meaning it wasn’t the literal definition, but I agree with him. The 70 million people residing in California, New York and Illinois get (in most cases) 6 Democratic senators to represent them. The people of Wyoming, Alaska, Idaho, Nebraska, Utah, Kansas, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Kentucky, South Carolina, Alabama, and Tennessee have about half the population of the three blue states, and have 24 senators that are just as reliably Republican. It’s even worse when you consider how the new filibuster works. Even though the flyover states have disproportionate power in the Senate at the start, they only need 41 votes to stop anything. I think it works out to less than 20% of the population can stop the will of the other 80. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/153 "2013-09-22T22:25:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What terrifies Republicans is the prospect of Obamacare succeeding. When people start getting refund checks because their insurer didn’t spend 80% of its income on providing care, when uninsured start signing up for the exchanges, when everybody knows someone still getting health care after hitting what previously was a lifetime benefit cap, attitudes will change. Until now, for every dollar spent promoting Obamacare, a thousand has been spent to demonize it. Demagogues prattled on about such things as “socialism”, “death panels”, and “government takeover of health care” unopposed by voices of reason. That will change. And when it does, casting dozens of votes to scuttle what will be a popular program isn’t going to be a vote-getter. Go ahead and think that 2014 is going to be a referendum on Obamacare, or the rights of mass murderers to arm themselves to the teeth. Go ahead and think that’s going to carry your Glorious Red Party on to perpetual power. You’ll be in for a great letdown. Obamacare isn’t like Social Security or Medicare. It creates losers as well as winners because to their credit, the Democrats made an honest attempt to make it deficit neutral, whereas with SS and Medicare they charged a low introductory, and predatory, rate, which they knew would have to be raised several times as more and more people received benefits. Losers: young people, many who receive employer insurance, wealthier taxpayers, Medicare beneficiaries(if the cuts all go through), and key industries that provide many jobs(medical device manufacturers for example). Oh, and did we forget unions? They are definitely net losers, and their support for ACA is contingent on them not losing TOO much. Except now there is concern that their gold-plated health plans are at risk. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/154 "2013-09-22T22:30:38Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > That’s certainly true (my favorite example is pointing out that DC and Wyoming have the same electoral votes despite DC having a greater population and less than 1/1400th the square mileage). > > Still, that can hardly be called gerrymandering because there’s no attempt (at least since the 1950s with Alaska and Hawaii) to take senate representation into account when designing states. I think it stretches the definition to the breaking point. Oh, I know, I was just making the point that the political divide as of 2013 favors Republicans given the quirks of our system. It’s true in the House as well even without gerrymandering. Democrats have been winning the popular vote and ending up with disappointing majorities or even losing Congress for a long time. This didn’t start in 2012. The Democrats won the popular vote slightly in Clinton’s 1996 landslide as well, and the result was a 2-seat gain and continuing to not control Congress. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/155 "2013-09-22T22:53:24Z")
True, the left has to be twice as smart as the Republicans in order to succeed at anything worthwhile. Luckily, that isn’t very hard. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/156 "2013-09-22T22:57:09Z")
Have to agree with that one. If both parties were equally politically adept, Republicans would dominate Congress the same way Democrats did for 40 years. The Presidency would continue to change hands as it always has, but the Electoral College should still afford Republicans a small advantage. The Democrats’ failure to appeal to voters beyond the big cities is a huge weakness that should be exploited much better than it is by Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/157 "2013-09-23T00:15:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The Democrats’ failure to appeal to voters beyond the big cities is a huge weakness that should be exploited much better than it is by Republicans. 249 million Americans live in urban areas. Paul Ryan said the reason he and Romney lost was due to urban votes. Your supposed insights on the electorate are crap. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/158 "2013-09-23T01:00:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Thus my addition that WE do believe it’s unpopular and are acting accordingly. We could be wrong. You guys thought Romney had a lock on the election. So Republicans don’t understand polls very well. Let’s look at the polls after it cuts in and the world doesn’t end. ACA is already quite popular with young people who get to stay on their parents’ insurance longer than before. I wonder how much of the opposition will evaporate the first time people without insurance now get to go to a doctor. Republicans are just as screwed by the current system as Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/159 "2013-09-23T03:46:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > 249 million Americans live in urban areas. Paul Ryan said the reason he and Romney lost was due to urban votes. > > Your supposed insights on the electorate are crap. “Urban” counts more than big cities, and big cities are where Democrats dominate. Not so much in “urban” cities of merely 100,000 people. Your supposed insights into urbanism are crap. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152/160 "2013-09-23T03:47:44Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You guys thought Romney had a lock on the election. So Republicans don’t understand polls very well. > > Let’s look at the polls after it cuts in and the world doesn’t end. ACA is already quite popular with young people who get to stay on their parents’ insurance longer than before. I wonder how much of the opposition will evaporate the first time people without insurance now get to go to a doctor. Republicans are just as screwed by the current system as Democrats. What happens when employees who like their insurance get dumped onto the exchanges, or worse, Medicaid? The weakness of the law is that it creates losers and winners. Whether there will be more winners than losers depends on how well the Obama team implements the law. Which right now should not inspire much confidence. You liberals are fighting the last war, thinking that an entitlement will always be successful because people get benefits, and we all know robbing Peter to pay Paul insures Paul’s support. Problem is, with past entitlements Peter was only robbed a little bit and Paul benefitted a lot, at least until it was unthinkable to change the system. ACA is structured entirely differently from SS or Medicare. It’s more akin to the 1988 health care reform bill that got repealed within a year when seniors revolted. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention seniors. What happens if those Medicare cuts do turn out to be real, and not merely “cuts in the rate of growth”? That’ll be fun to watch. Some Congressmen nearly got lynched in 1988 over that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-shutting-down-the-government-a-winning-strategy/669152.md?page=9)