# How is someone like Christine Ford supposed to prove her case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383 "2018-11-12T00:53:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/161 "2018-11-20T04:04:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Not having a shred of evidence is a substantial reason not to believe her. Put another way, only an emotional response to her testimony works as a reason to believe her. Your mama tells you she’s been raped. You ask her what evidence she has. Mom says, “My word.” You say, “Mom, you should stop telling stories.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/162 "2018-11-20T04:10:44Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Your mama tells you she’s been raped. > > You ask her what evidence she has. > > Mom says, “My word.” > > You say, “Mom, you should stop telling stories.” Someone says your mama murdered 35 children. Their evidence is their word. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/163 "2018-11-20T04:19:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What’s your point? I suspect that you would not answer like that to your mom. Would you? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/164 "2018-11-20T04:46:17Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I suspect that you would not answer like that to your mom. Would you? right back at you. the person accusing your mother of murder doesn’t know when or where it happened and has no evidence to back up the claim. But people feel the need to believe the accusation because it sounded credible. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/165 "2018-11-20T05:24:30Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > He physically can’t know that he is innocent. In the metaphysical sense sure. But that essentially applies to everything and anything. Do you think an apology is appropriate then, if he is innocent of the allegations? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/166 "2018-11-20T05:59:58Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > In the metaphysical sense sure. But that essentially applies to everything and anything. Do you think an apology is appropriate then, if he is innocent of the allegations? He could apologize for being drinking too much, being immatures and “for anything I might have done to embarrass myself while blacked out”. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/167 "2018-11-20T07:16:01Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Rape victims telling you they have been raped is, in fact, evidence. Indeed, when it comes to powerful and popular men, an understanding of how rape accusations against them tend to end for the victim, and the frequency of false positives vs. false negatives, in such cases an accusation should be considered **very good** evidence. Not enough to uphold a conviction in a court of law, perhaps, but enough that we all should pause before, y’know, putting the accused on the highest court in the country. In reality, yeah, rape is hard enough to prove when it happens, let alone decades after the fact. Imagine Ford had accused Kavanaugh the same night - if his friend didn’t flip, there’s no chance of a conviction and little chance of the police even taking it seriously. In criminal court, the standard of “beyond reasonable doubt” is necessary. In practical, non-court situations, the reality of rape is such that a lower bar is entirely reasonable. We should “believe women”. Personal story time. My ex was raped in high school. This is something that caused her untold suffering, and led to self-harm and severe depression. Of the five men involved, only one saw any consequences (he was expelled). It never went to the police. How could it? The cuts on her stomach weren’t hard evidence. Should I have claimed it never happened? Should I have rejected her testimony without better evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/168 "2018-11-20T07:21:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He could apologize for being drinking too much, being immatures and “for anything I might have done to embarrass myself while blacked out”. there’s no indication he ever blacked out. As for apologizing for drinking too much, that’s every college student who ever lived. On what planet do you see that happening? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/169 "2018-11-20T10:41:43Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Kavanaugh, on the other hand, went on the attack in rather spectacular fashion, not only implying that Ford is a liar but suggesting an entire Democrat-fueled political conspiracy against him. This doesn’t mean he was lying, but it does fit the classic profile of guilt – so classic in fact that it even has a name: DARVO, an acronym for “Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender.” Here’s an article about it: [Kavanaugh’s opening remarks are a master class in a common sexual abuser defense tactic](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/9/27/1799292/-Kavanaugh-s-opening-remarks-are-a-masterclass-in-a-common-sexual-abuser-defense-tactic). This tactic is so common simply because it works. It seems to me that this fit the classic profile of innocence too. If I was falsely accused of rape publicly, you bet I’d be furious, hateful towards the accuser, and if I have any good reason to suspect she has a specific motivition for acting like this, I would definitely make it know. In your first paragraph, you mentioned his lack of empathy, but I’m not sure why he should feel any empathy if he’s innocent. I sure wouldn’t show any empathy for a liar who publicly trash my reputation (and might send me to jail, but I believe that in this case statute of limitations would apply, no?). In fact, I feel that showing empathy (and what would he say, exactly : “I’m really sorry that you’re under the delusion of having been raped by me. Is there any way I can help you”?) would rather be suspicious because why would you feel empathy for someone accusing you if you don’t feel guilty? How would you react in his place? What kind of reaction would you expect on his part if he was indeed falsely accused? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/170 "2018-11-20T10:54:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He could apologize for being drinking too much, being immatures and “for anything I might have done to embarrass myself while blacked out”. This is tantamount to admit that he did something wrong. _This_, in fact would make me suspect he’s guilty. Why would someone accused of rape feel the need to apologize about unrelated, minor and perfectly normal things (being immature) and things “he might have done” if he has a clear conscience? That would reek of guilt. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/171 "2018-11-20T11:05:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You don’t have to be contrite to be empathetic. The point is that he didn’t come anywhere close to even trying to be empathetic, Seriously, would _you_ feel any empathy if you were falsely accused of rape? A person make up a story to destroy your reputation and send you to jail for a long time, and you feel _empathy_ for her? Why would you feel even a shred of empathy? If you’re innocent, you know she isn’t a victim. What could you possibly feel empathy for? Apart from a “father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they’re doing” kind of empathy if you’re some sort of saint, I really can’t see. It makes absolutely no sense to state that this man should feel empathy for her, or should apologize, if he’s innocent. I can’t comprehend the reasonning of people who states so. If she’s a liar, she deserves anything that he throws at her, and more. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/172 "2018-11-20T13:43:21Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > The problem with this reasoning is that there was never any danger of this SCOTUS seat going to a liberal judge. The alternative would have been a different conservative judge. The revelation was late enough (mid September) to jeopardize the confirmation of a new Justice before the midterms. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/173 "2018-11-20T13:48:44Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Somewhat. But they fought a lot harder than against Gorsuch, and that’s because Kavanaugh was a much worse candidate. He’s really the definition of a partisan hack. Also because Gorsuch was replacing Scalia. No real change in the status quo. Kavanaugh was replacing the “swing vote” and his confirmation changed the balance of SCOTUS for a generation. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/174 "2018-11-20T13:53:44Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Which is why I believe the democrats were wrong to bring this up. They should have stuck with specifics - how did he vote on this or that issue or case. Keep it professional. > > Bringing something up from 32 years prior, with no actual proof, when both people were in high school, was wrong. The stakes were incredibly high. There is no amount of partisanship in his past that would have derailed his confirmation. The Democrats were looking at a generation of conservative SCOTUS opinions. They were desperate and they threw the kitchen sink at him. So an uncorroborated accusation of sexual assault from 30+ years ago became their centerpiece and they probably lost some votes over it. But the fight was simply too important to shrug off as a lost cause. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/175 "2018-11-20T14:02:42Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Okay let’s say that your mom - and I realize that I may get into trouble with the moderators here - but let’s say that she’s forgotten to lock the door and your dad is out of town for whatever reason. A man sneaks in, rapes your mom, and leaves. He used a condom, she didn’t put up a fight, maybe she waits a few days or even weeks to report it, if ever. > > One day your mom tells you she was raped. > > You ask her, “Well Mom, what evidence do you got that this is true?” > > And she says back, “I have my word.” > > “Well Mom, you should stop telling stories.” > > If you mom didn’t slap you at that point, I would personally be amazed. I’m sure Ford’s kids believe her. To everyone else its just a story. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/176 "2018-11-20T14:48:32Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > That covers the Devil’s Triangle. What about the rest? > > The issue isn’t teenage humor (even if he wasn’t a teen by that point, technically). Let’s imagine that Kavanaugh got up and said, “I was in college, I was immature, I drank a lot, I did stupid things. I don’t recall any event like Mrs. Ford alleges, and I realize that’s not proof of my innocence, but I was young and stupid not young and criminal.” And then he goes through some of the stupid things he did at that age that he does remember, to give a sense of whether they were done with malice and sexual repression or just being a goof. And finally he says, “Mrs. Ford, I have no desire to minimize the pain that you may have felt all of these years from the event that took place in that room. If I did something that hurt you or scared you, I sincerely apologize for it. But I just can’t envision any way that I would have attacked you, trying to get sex. No matter how drunk I may have been. Maybe I was trying to scare you? Maybe I was just drunk and tripped and fell on you? Maybe it wasn’t me, like I said, I don’t remember any event like that and I don’t think I’d have drunk that heavily just hanging out at someone’s house.” By that reasoning, or perhaps better to say, if one were to actually apply reasoning, Ford should have including in her statement wording to the effect she was sorry _if_ her recollection was a false ‘recovered memory’ or _if_ such an incident actually occurred but didn’t involve Kavanaugh. Which would be equally ridiculous as your suggestion. Supposing both of them are really sure their version of the events (ie no such event, in Kavanaugh’s version) there is no reason for either of them to couch their statements in hypotheticals about the other being right or partly right. And we simply don’t and can’t know which if either or both of them actually know their claims are not true, or have some doubt deep down if they are entirely true. Besides which, ‘I don’t recall that but if I did something to hurt you I’m sorry’ has become a too stereotypical form of pseudo-apology by accused people stopping one step short of admitting the obvious, corroborated by multiple credible accusations with evidence. With K that’s just really not true. Ford’s story could be true, in the details and that it was actually K not somebody else. I don’t know. But a long way from obviously true. You’re suggesting a rhetorical approach that perhaps in an ideal world would be employed only by innocent, empathetic people, but in our sad, down and dirty world has become standard for people who pretty obviously did it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/177 "2018-11-20T14:52:38Z")
A real investigation could have confirmed other details of both Ford and Kavanaugh’s accounts and testimony (Ford’s account of seeing Judge at his supermarket job later, Kavanaugh’s drinking and possibly blackout habits, and much more). And there was plenty of time for a real investigation. But the Republican leadership decided political concerns were more important than a real and thorough investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/178 "2018-11-20T15:22:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Someone says your mama murdered 35 children. Their evidence is their word. > > What’s your point? What a ridiculous analogy. Murder is a little different, isn’t it? First of all, murder by its nature must leave physical evidence that lasts in perpetuity; namely the lack of a human where there was one before. So murder accusations need at least that piece of evidence. Also, evidence of the sort that existed in the Ford case is helpful: proximity to the victims. Opportunity. Lack of contradictory evidence (such as, to follow your analogy, already explained causes of death). ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/179 "2018-11-20T15:38:43Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Lack of contradictory evidence … Right - like no evidence that he’d never been in the location that she couldn’t recall. And absolutely no alibi for the unspecified date and time of this “event”. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383/180 "2018-11-20T15:53:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > … There is no amount of partisanship in his past that would have derailed his confirmation… 😕 Are speaking of the same Brett Kavanaugh? 😕 It took me almost twenty thousand milliseconds to research but I finally tracked down a rebuttal to your peculiar claim. The obscure website where I found it is called “Wikipedia.” > [@](#): > > … Kavanaugh worked until 1997 for Ken Starr again as an Associate Counsel in the Office of the Independent Counsel, where … he reopened an investigation into the 1993 death of Vincent Foster. After three years, the investigation concluded that Foster had indeed committed suicide,\*\* Kavanaugh has been criticized for investing federal money and other resources into investigating partisan conspiracy theories surrounding the cause of Foster’s death.\*\* > … > [okay, Kavanaugh wasted 1995-1997 on the taxpayer dime with his partisan Vince Foster conspiracy but that was finally settled] > [nope: this hero single-handedly reopened that case:] > … he rejoined Starr as an Associate Counselor in 1998. In Swidler & Berlin v. United States (1998), Kavanaugh argued his first and only case before the Supreme Court. Arguing for Starr’s office, Kavanaugh asked the court to disregard attorney-client privilege in relation to the investigation of Foster’s death. The court rejected Kavanaugh’s arguments by a vote of 6–3.[53] > > Kavanaugh had urged Starr to ask Clinton sexually graphic questions, and described Clinton as being involved in “a conspiracy to obstruct justice”, having “disgraced his office” and “lied to the American people”. The report provided extensive and explicit descriptions of each of the President’s sexual encounters with Lewinsky, a level of detail which the authors described as “essential” to the case against Clinton. > > … President George W. Bush nominated Kavanaugh to the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit on July 25, 2003,\*\* but his nomination stalled in the Senate for nearly three years. Democratic senators accused him of being too partisan, with Senator Dick Durbin calling him the “Forrest Gump of Republican politics”.\*\* In 2006, the American Bar Association downgraded him as only “qualified”. > … > In July 2007, Senators Patrick Leahy and Dick Durbin accused Kavanaugh of l **ying to the Judiciary Committee** when he denied being involved in formulating the Bush administration’s detention and interrogation policies… “No amount of partisanship that would derail …” Got it. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-someone-like-christine-ford-supposed-to-prove-her-case/824383.md?page=10)