# How is the Constitutional Right to Bear Arms So Heavily Infringed Upon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781 "2018-12-08T04:16:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/241 "2018-12-19T20:08:13Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I don’t need to be any more worried about Jimmy tomorrow than I would be today, he has a gun today, and a gun tomorrow, what’s the damn difference? The fact that Quick Draw McUltraVires doesn’t have a gun to wave around if something happens? I’ll take my chances with Jimmy, thanks.Prohibition would have worked if I couldn’t brew beer in my kitchen. So to be clear you are indeed arguing for banning guns. We don’t get such honesty in most threads or from politicians. We are told that you just want to ban bump stocks, or AR-15s, or 30 round magazines and that nobody has any intention of telling you that you cannot keep guns in your home or own hunting rifles and shotguns. We are told that is the slippery slope logical fallacy and that your side only wants “reasonable restrictions” on guns. Are you admitting that we were right all along? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/242 "2018-12-19T20:14:58Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > …Prohibition would have worked if I couldn’t brew beer in my kitchen. Umm, no. It was Mob smuggling, not bathtub beer. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/243 "2018-12-19T20:37:38Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I’ve never been in a situation where a seatbelt, a helmet, or a safety harness has saved my life. It does not follow that these things are not needed or are not valuable. It is good that you have been fortunate so far in your life, but others have not been. Likewise, I have thankfully never had the occasion to even point a gun at another human. > > Your argument seems to be the equivalent of since I have never been in a serious car wreck, then there is just no purpose to wearing a seatbelt or having airbags in my car. It’s a pity that I cannot post one of the many “missing the point” gifs on this board… > [@](#): > > But, surely you have heard of people murdered during home invasions and you have heard of homeowners literally saving their families’ lives by having a gun to protect themselves. Yes. I’ve also heard of homeowners disarming armed home invaders. I’ve heard of home invaders that couldn’t get in the house in the first place. I’ve heard of home invasions where the homeowner handed over a wad of cash and the gunmen thanked him profusely and left without firing a shot. I’ve heard lots of scenarios. And stop calling me Shirley. If you’re going to get personal, call me Laverne. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/244 "2018-12-19T20:40:02Z")
> [@Blues\_Man](#): > > The gun violence in the US is almost entirely an urban, inner city phenomenon. > > The violence is the worst in urban areas that are historically poor, minority, subjected to segregation, unemployment, under employment and poor schools where gangs and illegal drugs are prevalent. > > You are right that it is a result of the history of racism in this country. > > But it is not guns that cause this problem > > Gun violence is a symptom of the real problem and holding law abiding gun owners who will never commit a crime with or without a gun responsible for this is ridiculous. > [@DirkHardly](#): > > If you’re going to deny the correlation between a heterogeneous population as a cause of increased criminality or conflict in general then you’re going to have a problem with quite a few criminologists and sociologists. Also, political scientists, anthropologists and historians. Because it’s an accepted fact in all of those fields and social science in general. And if you view that position as ipso facto racist, well… > > People tend to get along better with people that are more like themselves and come into more conflict with people who are different. Whether the difference is based on “race”, culture/subculture, ethnicity, religion, social class or geography or other factors. And often those characteristics are inextricably linked. With regards to “race” it often bears some relationship with other factors so that they’re not easily distinguishable. Race and culture/subculture, race and ethnicity, race and geography, social class, religion etc. > > In the US one only need look at the history of ethnocentric neighborhoods (for lack of a better or more accurate term) and ethnically based criminal organizations (the Mafia, Tongs, Yardies, Yakuza, Latino gangs, skinheads, etc) and their history of conflict with each other. Really pretty obvious stuff if you think about. And the US, which is far more diverse than most countries in the world, bears that cost of people being people to a disproportionate degree. It’s the downside of our diversity. Okay, let’s explore this, shall we? I propose compiling a list of the largest 40 or 50 or any reasonable number of cities in Canada and the U.S. (for the purposes of this proposal, these two nations are considered to comprise “North America”) and gathering data for each on: 1. How “homogeneous” each is (for which we will obviously have to define the term). 2. How much poverty each has (ditto). 3. How much violent crime each suffers. 4. How much violent crime specifically involving guns each suffers. 5. The per-capita gun ownership rate. 6. Any other relevant criteria, for which I am open to suggestion. I propose one potential null hypothesis could be: H[sub]0[/sub]: The nationality of a city plays no significant role in the per-capita gun-crime rate. I’m inclined to think this could readily be rejected, but I’m prepared to do the whole stats thing if anyone is interested. According to wikipedia, the 30 largest cities in “North America” (as defined above) are, with Canadian cities underlined: 1. New York City 2. Los Angeles 3. Toronto 4. Chicago 5. Houston 6. Montreal 7. Philadelphia 8. Phoenix 9. San Antonio 10. San Diego 11. Dallas 12. Calgary 13. San Jose 14. Ottawa 15. Austin 16. Edmonton 17. Jacksonville 18. San Francisco 19. Indianapolis 20. Columbus 21. Fort Worth 22. Charlotte 23. Mississauga 24. Winnipeg 25. Seattle 26. Denver 27. El Paso 28. Detroit 29. Washington, D.C. 30. Boston If there’s already a flaw in the proposed methodology, best to hash it out now before data collection begins. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/245 "2018-12-19T20:40:40Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Are you willing to move your family there? There are hundreds of thousands of American expatriates living in Mexico. They say it’s quite nice. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/246 "2018-12-19T21:14:27Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > And stop calling me Shirley. If you’re going to get personal, call me Laverne. She died a couple of days ago, but not by a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/247 "2018-12-19T21:20:30Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So to be clear you are indeed arguing for banning guns. > > We don’t get such honesty in most threads or from politicians. We are told that you just want to ban bump stocks, or AR-15s, or 30 round magazines and that nobody has any intention of telling you that you cannot keep guns in your home or own hunting rifles and shotguns. > > We are told that is the slippery slope logical fallacy and that your side only wants “reasonable restrictions” on guns. > > Are you admitting that we were right all along? I’m arguing for a policy that will save tens of thousands of lives a year. Politicians argue for policies that will get them elected. The fact that those policies are the proximate cause of so much carnage is not my concern. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/248 "2018-12-19T21:30:45Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m arguing for a policy that will save tens of thousands of lives a year. > . But you have no evidence that is true. You want to do something that will cost tens or hundreds of billions, triple the prison population, and certainly cause additional deaths due to show downs- and you can’t prove it will do much. Tells you what- let’s ban cigarettes. That would save 500000 lives a year. No Bill of Rights to get in the way. Wont cost much, other than cig taxes drying up. And anyway only around 10000 gun murders a year. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/249 "2018-12-19T21:33:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Okay, let’s explore this, shall we? I propose compiling a list of the largest 40 or 50 or any reasonable number of cities in Canada and the U.S. (for the purposes of this proposal, these two nations are considered to comprise “North America”) and gathering data for each on: > > 1. How “homogeneous” each is (for which we will obviously have to define the term). > 2. How much poverty each has (ditto). > 3. How much violent crime each suffers. > 4. How much violent crime specifically involving guns each suffers. > 5. The per-capita gun ownership rate. > 6. Any other relevant criteria, for which I am open to suggestion. > > I propose one potential null hypothesis could be: > > H[sub]0[/sub]: The nationality of a city plays no significant role in the per-capita gun-crime rate. > > I’m inclined to think this could readily be rejected, but I’m prepared to do the whole stats thing if anyone is interested. According to wikipedia, the 30 largest cities in “North America” (as defined above) are, with Canadian cities underlined: > > 1. New York City > 2. Los Angeles > 3. Toronto > 4. Chicago > 5. Houston > 6. Montreal > 7. Philadelphia > 8. Phoenix > 9. San Antonio > 10. San Diego > 11. Dallas > 12. Calgary > 13. San Jose > 14. Ottawa > 15. Austin > 16. Edmonton > 17. Jacksonville > 18. San Francisco > 19. Indianapolis > 20. Columbus > 21. Fort Worth > 22. Charlotte > 23. Mississauga > 24. Winnipeg > 25. Seattle > 26. Denver > 27. El Paso > 28. Detroit > 29. Washington, D.C. > 30. Boston > > If there’s already a flaw in the proposed methodology, best to hash it out now before data collection begins. When considering the racism aspect that has led to high murder and incarceration rates for black people in the USA and high murder rates and incarceration rates for indigenous people in Canada, indigenous populations in large Canadian cities tend not to be analogous black populations in similar sized American cities. Why? Gun control. (That being said, I live in what more often than not is the murder capital of Canada, where our police department’s Board of Commissioners was just sacked for what comes down to institutional racism, but even then Baltimore’s murder rate is almost ten times higher than our murder rate. Racism leads to more murders, but racism and guns lead to a hell of a lot more murders.) ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/250 "2018-12-19T21:44:59Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m arguing for a policy that will save tens of thousands of lives a year. > > Politicians argue for policies that will get them elected. The fact that those policies are the proximate cause of so much carnage is not my concern. It is misplacing the blame. Several years ago my cousin got drunk and crashed his brand new Nissan Altima with 8,000 miles on it and totaled it. Luckily he was unhurt and nobody was killed. Was that Nissan’s fault? Your side’s argument implies that it is and that is silly. You admit that your policy would keep guns in the hands of Jimmy the Crack Dealer but take mine away. How is that a net good for society? I’m with DrDeth here. You have not at all shown that your policy would save even a single life, let alone have any societal impact except to keep guns in the hands of criminals and leave law abiding citizens at the mercy of those criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/251 "2018-12-19T22:56:53Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So to be clear you are indeed arguing for banning guns. > > We don’t get such honesty in most threads or from politicians. We are told that you just want to ban bump stocks, or AR-15s, or 30 round magazines and that nobody has any intention of telling you that you cannot keep guns in your home or own hunting rifles and shotguns. > > We are told that is the slippery slope logical fallacy and that your side only wants “reasonable restrictions” on guns. > > Are you admitting that we were right all along? Can we paint all conservatives with the laughably broad strokes you’re attempting to use? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/252 "2018-12-19T23:16:52Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Can we paint all conservatives with the laughably broad strokes you’re attempting to use? Maybe you will answer the question? I am not playing any gotcha games. We hear all of the time that your side does not want to ban guns but only wants “reasonable restrictions.” And then we get into multiple pages of these threads where you are talking about banning guns. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/253 "2018-12-19T23:23:40Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Maybe you will answer the question? I am not playing any gotcha games. We hear all of the time that your side does not want to ban guns but only wants “reasonable restrictions.” > > And then we get into multiple pages of these threads where you are talking about banning guns. Which is it? I have had posters say they “only” want to ban _all handguns_ or _all semi-automatics._ In one case, everything but single shot rifles. But they’re not in favor of a Gun ban, oh no. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DirkHardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@DirkHardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkHardly)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/254 "2018-12-19T23:53:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Okay, let’s explore this, shall we? I propose compiling a list of the largest 40 or 50 or any reasonable number of cities in Canada and the U.S. (for the purposes of this proposal, these two nations are considered to comprise “North America”) and gathering data for each on: > > 1. How “homogeneous” each is (for which we will obviously have to define the term). > 2. How much poverty each has (ditto). > 3. How much violent crime each suffers. > 4. How much violent crime specifically involving guns each suffers. > 5. The per-capita gun ownership rate. > 6. Any other relevant criteria, for which I am open to suggestion. > > I propose one potential null hypothesis could be: > > H[sub]0[/sub]: The nationality of a city plays no significant role in the per-capita gun-crime rate. > > I’m inclined to think this could readily be rejected, but I’m prepared to do the whole stats thing if anyone is interested. According to wikipedia, the 30 largest cities in “North America” (as defined above) are, with Canadian cities underlined: > > 1. New York City > 2. Los Angeles > 3. Toronto > 4. Chicago > 5. Houston > 6. Montreal > 7. Philadelphia > 8. Phoenix > 9. San Antonio > 10. San Diego > 11. Dallas > 12. Calgary > 13. San Jose > 14. Ottawa > 15. Austin > 16. Edmonton > 17. Jacksonville > 18. San Francisco > 19. Indianapolis > 20. Columbus > 21. Fort Worth > 22. Charlotte > 23. Mississauga > 24. Winnipeg > 25. Seattle > 26. Denver > 27. El Paso > 28. Detroit > 29. Washington, D.C. > 30. Boston > > If there’s already a flaw in the proposed methodology, best to hash it out now before data collection begins. You know there are hundreds of criminologists in North America that spend their professional lives studying crime, gathering data, conducting experiments and doing research, writing articles and books, and working with Gov’t’s and private entities to understand the causes of crime and how to reduce its frequency and impact on society. Criminology is a multi-discipline field covering, among other things, economics, sociology, biology, psychology, and law. And it’s highly specialized, I had one professor whose specialty was “defensive space” which involved the design of areas such as low-income housing (layout, stairways, lighting, parking etc) in order to minimize opportunities for criminal activity. That should give some indication of the complexity of these questions and their ultimate answers. So I’m pretty sure any answer is more complicated than: guns. The problem with crime having so many possible causes is it’s hard to control for any one of them. And each theoretical cause is itself amazingly complex. And it suffers from the difficulties of any social science, even “simple” people are incredibly complicated when it comes to their behavior and its root causes and also that people in general make horrible test subjects in that context. But I’m sure your little experiment will finally get us some real answers. ---
**Author:** ![DirkHardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@DirkHardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkHardly)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/255 "2018-12-20T00:08:14Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > When considering the racism aspect that has led to high murder and incarceration rates for black people in the USA and high murder rates and incarceration rates for indigenous people in Canada, indigenous populations in large Canadian cities tend not to be analogous black populations in similar sized American cities. Why? Gun control. > > (That being said, I live in what more often than not is the murder capital of Canada, where our police department’s Board of Commissioners was just sacked for what comes down to institutional racism, but even then Baltimore’s murder rate is almost ten times higher than our murder rate. Racism leads to more murders, but racism and guns lead to a hell of a lot more murders.) What aspect of racism in America and its criminal justice system are you referring to that has lead to a higher murder and incarceration rate for blacks? Offender rates? Policing and arrest rates?Prosecution? Racism in the trial process? Sentencing? Because while racism is a factor in all of those things it is not the only factor and not even close to the primary cause. This is common knowledge among criminologists. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/256 "2018-12-20T00:11:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have had posters say they “only” want to ban _all handguns_ or _all semi-automatics._ In one case, everything but single shot rifles. But they’re not in favor of a Gun ban, oh no. :rolleyes: Right. That is part of the equivocation that happens in these threads and also done by politicians. When they say, “We do not support banning guns!!! No WAY!” they mean that they do not support completely and unconditionally destroying every single gun in existence and would allow you to keep a single shot shotgun locked up at the local armory which you could own after paying a hefty tax and registration fee and only check it out when target shooting or hunting. See, guns are still legal and we are not banning them! But the equivocation part comes in because people hear that statement and reasonably believe that it means that they will be allowed to keep the guns that they own in their home in the same way that they do now except that there will be extra regulations for new purchases and such. It is a dastardly little untruth. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/257 "2018-12-20T00:37:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > only around 10000 gun murders a year. I just thought this bears repeating as a reminder of the conservative mindset. 10,000 murders here 10,000 murders there, pretty soon, you’re talking real numbers. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/258 "2018-12-20T01:00:50Z")
> [@DirkHardly](#): > > You know there are hundreds of criminologists in North America that spend their professional lives studying crime, gathering data, conducting experiments and doing research, writing articles and books, and working with Gov’t’s and private entities to understand the causes of crime and how to reduce its frequency and impact on society. Criminology is a multi-discipline field covering, among other things, economics, sociology, biology, psychology, and law. And it’s highly specialized, I had one professor whose specialty was “defensive space” which involved the design of areas such as low-income housing (layout, stairways, lighting, parking etc) in order to minimize opportunities for criminal activity. That should give some indication of the complexity of these questions and their ultimate answers. So I’m pretty sure any answer is more complicated than: guns. > > The problem with crime having so many possible causes is it’s hard to control for any one of them. And each theoretical cause is itself amazingly complex. And it suffers from the difficulties of any social science, even “simple” people are incredibly complicated when it comes to their behavior and its root causes and also that people in general make horrible test subjects in that context. > > But I’m sure your little experiment will finally get us some real answers. Okay, so I’ll mark you as an “I concede”. Anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/259 "2018-12-20T01:48:47Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I just thought this bears repeating as a reminder of the conservative mindset. > > 10,000 murders here 10,000 murders there, pretty soon, you’re talking real numbers. 500,000 tobacco deaths. 90,000 alcohol deaths. Yeah, real numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/260 "2018-12-20T02:17:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 500,000 tobacco deaths. > > 90,000 alcohol deaths. > > Yeah, real numbers. Banning guns at this point would indeed be pretty useless. I’d kinda like to see the Americans embark on a generational effort to reduce the amount of fear they wallow in - fear of their own government, fear of each other, and fear of immigrants. A large part of that will be to stop voting for politicians who try to stoke those fears and then pander to them. After a few decades, one can hope the desire for lots and lots and lots of guns will seem quaint, almost silly. Batman was right, but he limited his view to criminals. Americans overall are a pretty cowardly and superstitious lot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781.md?page=14)