# How is the Constitutional Right to Bear Arms So Heavily Infringed Upon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781 "2018-12-08T04:16:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/261 "2018-12-20T03:48:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Batman was right, but he limited his view to criminals. Americans overall are a pretty cowardly and superstitious lot. No, _humans_ are. But here is the real motivation for guns grabbers: “We think it might make us more safe, and since WE dont own of the nasty things, let’s ban them!” But try and ban something they like or want, and they go into a tizzy. The smokers killing FIVE TIMEs as many innocent victims as guns- talking about “smokers rights”. The boozers doing about the same “Prohibition didnt work, so we can drink all we want, even tho we too, kill others.” Those who drive over powered cars, with top speeds twice that of the legal limit. If you smoke or drink or drive really fast cars, then you should really shut up about taking guns away. ---
**Author:** ![DirkHardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@DirkHardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkHardly)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/262 "2018-12-20T03:57:48Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Okay, so I’ll mark you as an “I concede”. Anyone else? That’s about the level of intellectual rigor I expect from your posts. Followed by the expected self-declaration of victory based on absolutely nothing. I at least have a bachelor’s degree in Criminal Justice with about a half-dozen criminology classes under my belt. What qualifications or educational background do you have that would even begin to make you think that your overly simplistic thesis and experiment will produce anything of real value? There is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong. ``` H.L. Mencken ``` ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/263 "2018-12-20T10:49:11Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Back in the day, about 50% of UK suicides were accomplished via gas asphyxiation. This is because they used Coal Gas instead of Natural Gas, CG has a high proportion of carbon monoxide, making it a very convenient way to off oneself. > > The UK transitioned to NG, which is no damn good for killing yourself. What do you think happened to the suicide rate in the UK? Surprising exactly nobody who put any thought into it, the suicide rate dropped significantly during the transition to natural gas, then stabilized at the lower level. > > Turns out, when you take away an easy and convenient way to kill oneself, fewer people kill themselves. That desire to kill yourself, that span of time when you’re actually willing to do the deed tends to be temporary. If a person survives that time in their life, they tend to not kill themselves quite as often. Then tell me why does a country like Japan with its very strict gun control have extremely high suicide rates ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/264 "2018-12-20T10:53:22Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > If bourbon was designed to kill old ladies, I might be in favor of banning it. > > Before you explain how guns aren’t designed to kill people, rest assured that whatever you claim they are actually designed to do, there’s a way to accomplish exactly that, with the device being far less dangerous to people than guns are. The purpose of a tool is defined by the user. If I use a wrench to beat a person to death then the purpose of that wrench at the time was to beat a person to death. It is the wielder of the weapon that is responsible for what is done with that weapon not the weapon itself And once again the vast majority of gun owners will never commit any crime so those people are not dangerous to to other people Here’s the thing People kill people People have always killed people People will always kill people ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/265 "2018-12-20T10:58:07Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > Because the guns will be much, much harder for them to get. Does that seriously not make sense to you? > > Currently, a “criminal” who wants a gun can either buy it in the store (assuming he has no record), steal it from another private gun owner, or purchase a gun illegally from his fellow criminals. If guns are taken out of circulation, that means he can neither buy nor steal the gun because there are no guns to steal. This means the guns must be imported by other criminals, and the criminal who wants to buy a gun must cultivate contacts with black marketers. > > This (A) allows more opportunity to intercept the criminals at any stage of the importation process and (B) it allows us to readily distinguish the so-called ‘good guys’ from the ‘bad guys’ because anyone with a gun can be presumed to be a ‘bad guy.’ But most importantly, (C) it just makes the guns fucking harder to get. This means impulsive criminals with no money and no black market contacts have no means to acquire an illegal gun. Most criminals are utter morons who do not plot their crimes well in advance and do not want to put effort into setting the conditions. By taking away guns from the so-called ‘law abiding’ we immediately eliminate every impulsive domestic violence shooting, most suicide, and practically all shootings committed by children. Other criminals will be dissuaded by the prohibitive costs and the risks required just to get started in their enterprise. \*\* When you make it harder to commit a crime, fewer criminals put forth the effort.\*\* > > What part of this is confusing to you? you mean like illegal drugs are hard to get? If there is money in the illicit trade of anything then that particular item will be available. There is a thriving illegal gun market now what do you think a ban on guns will do to that illegal market? ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/266 "2018-12-20T11:06:12Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > I’ll inform your next of kin of your noble sacrifice, Hopalong. It’s amazing how I’ve lived in this hellhole called the United States without having a veritable arsenal in my house, ready to drill potential thugs, terrorists and other nogoodnicks at a moment’s notice, apparently carrying at least one weapon in hand at all times because Mr. Scumbag usually forgets to warn me adequately before he crashes through my front to violate my Cocker Spaniel. My gawwwd, what was I thinking? What of the children?? > > :rolleyes: It only takes one time. True story Connecticut A Doctor living in an upscale neighborhood was home one day with his wife and two teenage daughters. Two criminals who had been casing the neighborhood finally decided to act and invaded their home. They beat the doctor severely and left him for dead then proceeded to rape and torture his wife and daughters before tying them up and burning them alive by setting the house on fire. What were the odds of that? If the doctor had owned a gun would it have helped? Maybe, maybe not But if he did own a gun his chances of saving his family from a horrible death would have at least been better There is real violence in this world and just because you haven’t been a victim as of yet in no way means you won’t be in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/267 "2018-12-20T11:09:54Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I don’t need to be any more worried about Jimmy tomorrow than I would be today, he has a gun today, and a gun tomorrow, what’s the damn difference? The fact that Quick Draw McUltraVires doesn’t have a gun to wave around if something happens? I’ll take my chances with Jimmy, thanks.Prohibition would have worked if I couldn’t brew beer in my kitchen. or if some guy with a still didn’t make moonshine by the gallon and ship it in to your town ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/268 "2018-12-20T11:46:16Z")
> [@DirkHardly](#): > > That’s about the level of intellectual rigor I expect from your posts. Followed by the expected self-declaration of victory based on absolutely nothing. Hey, you started with the absolutely nothing first. You had a thesis of “heterogeneous population as a cause of increased criminality or conflict in general” and when I proposed compiling some basic stats to examine this, you turned around and said it was way too complicated. Frankly, I take that as admission your statement is more dogma than fact, and you don’t wish to have it examined, let alone challenged. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/269 "2018-12-20T11:51:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If you smoke or drink or drive really fast cars, then you should really shut up about taking guns away. Nah - choosing to be concerned about one particular problem does not and certainly should not stifle freedom of expression, even in light of other problems. That’s a _first_ amendment thing. ---
**Author:** ![DirkHardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@DirkHardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkHardly)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/270 "2018-12-20T16:48:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hey, you started with the absolutely nothing first. You had a thesis of “heterogeneous population as a cause of increased criminality or conflict in general” and when I proposed compiling some basic stats to examine this, you turned around and said it was way too complicated. Frankly, I take that as admission your statement is more dogma than fact, and you don’t wish to have it examined, let alone challenged. It’s not my thesis. It’s so well known in criminology and the social sciences in general that its existence at least is seen as an accepted fact (the specifics and the strength of the effect is more debated). Here are a few sources I found with a few seconds of Google search. The last author, Sellin, is considered a pioneer in scientific criminology and one of the founders of what is commonly called Conflict Criminology. Group Size, Heterogeneity, and Intergroup Conflict: A Test of Blau’s Inequality and Heterogeneity Robert J. Sampson Population Heterogeneity and the Sociogenesis of Homicide Henry B. Hansmann and John M. Quigley Social Forces Vol. 61, No. 1 (Sep., 1982), pp. 206-224 Culture Conflict and Crime Thorsten Sellin American Journal of Sociology Vol. 44, No. 1 (Jul., 1938), pp. 97-103 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/271 "2018-12-20T16:53:26Z")
Okay, all the reason to study the relative diversity of American and Canadian cities to see how much impact diversity has versus how much impact gun control has. Canadian cities may or may not be less diverse, but I’m fairly confident they are a lot less violent. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/272 "2018-12-20T20:35:21Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Then here is where we definitely part ways. How can the National Guard be considered a militia by the Framer’s definition? It is an arm of the (ultimately) federal government! > > You might as well argue that the feds can create a “Free Speech Board” in each community and that through that board (and only through that board) are citizen complaints about the government heard. > > The whole point of the Second Amendment is that the government, and especially the federal government, cannot monopolize force or the use of it. Standing armies were considered dangerous and citizen militias were the cure for that. > > You cannot create an arm of the government and say “There is your citizen militia” which is wholly controlled and ran by the government. The government control was the very evil addressed, by intent and principle, in the Second Amendment. How are the people supposed to know you’re “well-regulated” and not just a bunch of drunken inept clowns waving guns around? Maybe by having regulations? Like proof of training? No, that would be to simple a solution. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/273 "2018-12-20T20:42:34Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Maybe you will answer the question? I am not playing any gotcha games. We hear all of the time that your side does not want to ban guns but only wants “reasonable restrictions.” > > And then we get into multiple pages of these threads where you are talking about banning guns. Which is it? What question? You’re implying ALL liberals want to take ALL guns as if it’s a gotcha moment and makes everything transparent. That’s not a question, it’s a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/274 "2018-12-20T20:49:38Z")
I’m kind of curious about creating a citizen’s militia that is _not_ controlled by the government. Seems to me the government, state or federal, would call that an “insurrection” and mobilize the militia they controlled to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Darkon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@Darkon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkon)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/275 "2018-12-21T07:46:09Z")
Gestalt hasn’t been around since the 8th, so I wonder if he even cares about this so called debate anymore. However, I will answer all the questions he asked in his original post. > [@Gestalt](#): > > How is THE Constitutional Right to Bear Arms So Heavily Infringed Upon? It’s not. > [@Gestalt](#): > > …[blah, blah, blah]…How is this allowed, legally…? How is this justified? The Constitution established the Supreme Court. > [@Gestalt](#): > > …is our right to bear arms truly a Constitutional Right anymore? Yes. > [@Gestalt](#): > > Haven’t we whittled it down to almost nothing? No. > [@Gestalt](#): > > In the whole world of “arms,” many Americans are only allowed to own personal-use firearms of limited magazine [capacity]. What is the…basis behind that? The 2nd Amendment. > [@Gestalt](#): > > …should we either open up the right to bear arms significantly…or repeal the Second Amendment altogether? No and maybe. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/276 "2018-12-21T09:26:14Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > How are the people supposed to know you’re “well-regulated” and not just a bunch of drunken inept clowns waving guns around? Maybe by having regulations? Like proof of training? No, that would be to simple a solution. Because nobody is arguing that the militia cannot have any restrictions or regulations anymore that free speech has no restrictions. But the restrictions cannot be such (like banning guns) that would prevent a militia entirely. You cannot have a condition precedent with the potential of destroying the right such as the government mandating certain things like training before owning guns. I wouldn’t have a problem with saying that you cannot drink booze on militia duty or that the militia is to adopt accepted methods of training and drilling. But the keeping and bearing and owning guns is one of the basic prerequisites for a militia. > [@Chisquirrel](#): > > What question? You’re implying ALL liberals want to take ALL guns as if it’s a gotcha moment and makes everything transparent. That’s not a question, it’s a joke. The argument is that we are just being silly that NOBODY wants to take your guns. Your side in this thread and others suggest otherwise. Are you disputing that? > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m kind of curious about creating a citizen’s militia that is _not_ controlled by the government. Seems to me the government, state or federal, would call that an “insurrection” and mobilize the militia they controlled to stop it. A militia is not an insurrection, it is “necessary to the security of a free state.” It supplements the powers of the government and may indeed be called into the service of the federal government if needed under Congress’ Article I powers. Reasonable regulations can be made, but it cannot be disarmed or restricted in owning arms anymore than the free press can have heavily regulated and taxed ink and paper. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/277 "2018-12-21T11:04:47Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > A militia is not an insurrection Try to assemble your own “people’s militia” outside of government control, and I predict it’ll get called one, and rather quickly, the moment you actually do something militia-like involving the bearing of arms. I daresay the moment you try to put this belief into action: > [@you](#): > > The whole point of the Second Amendment is that the government, and especially the federal government, cannot monopolize force or the use of it. …and decide you need not answer to any government official, state or federal, you’ll find they’re just fine demonstrating that they do indeed have a monopoly on force, and prison-time awaits people who decide to use force on their own. Regardless of how you want to interpret the 2nd Amendment, there’s lots of other stuff in the constitution about rebellion and such. Spoiler: the constitution’s not okay with it. ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/278 "2018-12-21T11:10:18Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > How are the people supposed to know you’re “well-regulated” and not just a bunch of drunken inept clowns waving guns around? Maybe by having regulations? Like proof of training? No, that would be to simple a solution. The right to keep and bear arms is not contingent on being enlisted in the militia ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/279 "2018-12-21T11:18:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m kind of curious about creating a citizen’s militia that is _not_ controlled by the government. Seems to me the government, state or federal, would call that an “insurrection” and mobilize the militia they controlled to stop it. [http://law.jrank.org/pages/10067/Second-Amendment-PRIVATE-MILITIAS.html](http://law.jrank.org/pages/10067/Second-Amendment-PRIVATE-MILITIAS.html) Approximately half the states maintain laws regulating private militias. Generally, these laws prohibit the parading and exercising of armed private militias in public, but do not forbid the formation of private militias. Read more: Second Amendment - Private Militias - Government, Law, Freemen, and Federal - JRank Articles [Second Amendment - Private Militias - Government, Law, Freemen, and Federal - JRank Articles](http://law.jrank.org/pages/10067/Second-Amendment-PRIVATE-MILITIAS.html#ixzz5aJfthIDH) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/280 "2018-12-21T12:57:51Z")
Just FTR, check out Article I, Section 8, Clauses 15 and 16. Good stuff there: > [@](#): > > [The Congress shall have Power] To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; > > [The Congress shall have Power] To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; IOW, :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781.md?page=15)