# How is the Constitutional Right to Bear Arms So Heavily Infringed Upon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781 "2018-12-08T04:16:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![DirkHardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@DirkHardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkHardly)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/321 "2018-12-24T14:18:56Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Here ya go, Dirk. [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21392703&postcount=308](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21392703&postcount=308) Here I go what? What point are you trying to make? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/322 "2018-12-24T14:50:53Z")
> [@Blues\_Man](#): > > Urban areas usually have fewer guns per person yet have far more violence than rural areas where there are more guns per person > > We don’t have a gun problem we have an inner city poverty and crime problem to such an extent that a relatively small number of urban areas with very high murder rates skew the rate of the entire country. And that’s why I am still happy to start an analysis of the 30 largest cities in the U.S. and Canada and put aside rural issues for now. It may have to wait until after the holidays, though. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/323 "2018-12-24T14:53:43Z")
> [@Blues\_Man](#): > > More people are killed annually with knives than rifles of any kind, including those scary AR 15 rifles. > > More people are killed with fists and feet annually than with rifles Wait, what? You got a cite for that? > [@Blues\_Man](#): > > Nothing is going to stop a person hell bent on murder from killing. Except a gun, right? The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun; isn’t that the argument? I thought it was funny after the Thousand Oaks shooting a couple of weeks ago when conservatives were saying fewer people would have been killed if country & western bars had more armed patrons, completely ignoring the fact the the problem was an armed patron. Ironic that. Full disclosure: I am pretty ambivalent on this topic and actually lean more toward the pro-gun side. I think there is nothing wrong with universal background checks and licensing. I think the real problems we have in this country with guns have to do with mental health care and poverty. Gun violence is a symptom, not a cause. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/324 "2018-12-24T14:54:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I disagree. Take a car and convert miles per gallon to people per gallon. Then factor in how many hours before refueling. > > It’s not matches, cars, knives or guns. It’s the person. I’m at a loss as to what you’re talking about. Do American cities have more murders, and particularly murders with guns, than comparably-sized Canadian cities? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/325 "2018-12-24T14:59:46Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Wait, what? You got a cite for that? If it’s specific to rifles, I could see it. Since most of the murders involving guns in the U.S. specifically involve handguns (including the attempted murder that wounded the namesake of the Brady Bill), I admit being a tad curious about the whole “assault weapon” thing. It’s like the law is being informed more by Hollywood depictions than actual crime stats. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/326 "2018-12-24T15:09:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If it’s specific to rifles, I could see it. Since most of the murders involving guns in the U.S. specifically involve handguns (including the attempted murder that wounded the namesake of the Brady Bill), I admit being a tad curious about the whole “assault weapon” thing. It’s like the law is being informed more by Hollywood depictions than actual crime stats. Ah, that makes sense. Still like to see a cite though. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/327 "2018-12-24T16:57:32Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Ah, that makes sense. Still like to see a cite though. I know the question was not directed towards me, but [here](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls)you go. Pretty common information. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/328 "2018-12-24T17:27:35Z")
> [@Blues\_Man](#): > > More people are killed annually with knives than rifles of any kind, including those scary AR 15 rifles. > > More people are killed with fists and feet annually than with rifles So the fuck what? I never get tired of this old(and it IS old) goalpost move where the topic is _firearms_ and the deaths they cause, and someone tries to make a lame attempt to change the subject to just _rifles_ and the deaths they cause. Where are your stats for _firarms_ deaths vs. knife deaths? Tell me how many more people were killed by fists and feet then by firearms, and while you’re at it, could you please break it down as to how many were killed by fists as opposed to how many killed by feet? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/329 "2018-12-24T17:34:35Z")
> [@Blues\_Man](#): > > The question is are you going to be able to defend yourself from someone hell bent on murder if the single most effective tool for self defense \< a firearm\> is “controlled” to the point of being almost impossible to get You cannot claim on one hand that knives, hands and feet are supposedly deadlier, then turn around and claim that firearms are your best defense. Might I suggest that you arm yourself with a knife, or maybe use your ever-so-effective fists and feet to defend yourself with? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/330 "2018-12-25T00:20:51Z")
I always carry cigarettes for self-defense. They’re SUPER lethal… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/331 "2018-12-25T03:03:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m at a loss as to what you’re talking about. Do American cities have more murders, and particularly murders with guns, than comparably-sized Canadian cities? The post was self explanatory. It’s not the tool that kills, it’s the person. If you take away one tool, another will be used. American cities have more murders Than Canadian cities because there is a culture of violence driving it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/332 "2018-12-25T03:11:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You cannot claim on one hand that knives, hands and feet are supposedly deadlier, then turn around and claim that firearms are your best defense. Might I suggest that you arm yourself with a knife, or maybe use your ever-so-effective fists and feet to defend yourself with? Yes, knives and martial arts are great until you’re set upon by more than one person. Imagine if you or someone you know is attacked by a group of hooligans intent on doing harm. In that situation a gun is the preferred method of defense. I’ve been there before. It’s not something I’d like to repeat but I can discuss the matter with you because I’m still alive. And I’d like to add that I’m getting to an age where it’s tougher to defend myself with fists and knives. ---
**Author:** ![DirkHardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@DirkHardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkHardly)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/333 "2018-12-25T03:47:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The post was self explanatory. It’s not the tool that kills, it’s the person. If you take away one tool, another will be used. > > American cities have more murders Than Canadian cities because there is a culture of violence driving it. The Altheimer study I linked to upthread supports at least the “tool” part with regards to assault and robbery. From its conclusion: This study examined the relationship between city levels of gun availability and the individual odds of assault and robbery victimization. These results suggest that city gun availability does matter when it comes to explaining individual odds of gun victimization, but not individual odds of total robbery and total assault victimization (pp. 22-23). However, when the “tool” in question is a gun there are some predictable effects: These results lend support to a weapon instrumentality effect rather than a facilitation effect. From these results we can conclude that assaults perpetrated in cities with high levels of gun availability may be more likely to end in serious injury or death than assaults carried out in cities with lower levels of gun availability. Furthermore, we can also conclude that robberies carried out in cities with high levels of gun availability may be more deadly and involve more lucrative targets than robberies carried out in cities with lower levels of gun availability. Stated differently, if gun availability levels influence individual odds of gun crime victimization, and the use of a gun during the commission of a crime influences the target of a crime and its outcome, then it should be safe to conclude that gun availability levels indirectly effect (sic) the target of a crime and its outcome (Ibid. p. 23). ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/334 "2018-12-25T10:55:50Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Wait, what? You got a cite for that? > > Except a gun, right? The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun; isn’t that the argument? > > I thought it was funny after the Thousand Oaks shooting a couple of weeks ago when conservatives were saying fewer people would have been killed if country & western bars had more armed patrons, completely ignoring the fact the the problem was an armed patron. Ironic that. > > Full disclosure: I am pretty ambivalent on this topic and actually lean more toward the pro-gun side. I think there is nothing wrong with universal background checks and licensing. I think the real problems we have in this country with guns have to do with mental health care and poverty. Gun violence is a symptom, not a cause. FBI statistics [https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/topic-pages/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/topic-pages/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls) And I don’t talk in slogans. I am stating the the single best self defense weapon is a firearm. The whole good guy with a gun thing is stupid. I for one do not and will not stop “bad guys” with a gun. I am not a cop and I don’t want to be a cop In fact my personal philosophy on concealed carry is that my weapon is solely for self defense or the defense of my wife and not the general public. If I see anyone getting the crap kicked out of them then I’ll call the cops but I will not draw my firearm because IMO if anyone chooses not to own a weapon or chooses not to carry for self defense then I assume his choice is to place his safety in the hands of government law enforcement and I will respect that choice. ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/335 "2018-12-25T10:58:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You cannot claim on one hand that knives, hands and feet are supposedly deadlier, then turn around and claim that firearms are your best defense. Might I suggest that you arm yourself with a knife, or maybe use your ever-so-effective fists and feet to defend yourself with? All I did was to state a fact. I never said anything about one being deadlier than another. The fact is that anything can be deadly. The point is people kill people People have always killed people People will always kill people So do you want to defend yourself with your fists, a knife, or a firearm? ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/336 "2018-12-25T11:03:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So the fuck what? I never get tired of this old(and it IS old) goalpost move where the topic is _firearms_ and the deaths they cause, and someone tries to make a lame attempt to change the subject to just _rifles_ and the deaths they cause. > Where are your stats for _firarms_ deaths vs. knife deaths? > Tell me how many more people were killed by fists and feet then by firearms, and while you’re at it, could you please break it down as to how many were killed by fists as opposed to how many killed by feet? > :rolleyes: And yet the gun control freaks in the US only seem to call for a particular style of rifle to be banned. But you obviously missed my point People kill people People have always killed people People will always kill people These are 3 facts as irrefutable as gravity. Human beings are the most violent animal to ever walk this earth Knowing this the question is why wouldn’t you want a firearm ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/337 "2018-12-25T12:10:20Z")
> [@Blues\_Man](#): > > Knowing this the question is why wouldn’t you want a firearm And the answer is, if everyone else in my environment gets to have one too, then there is a higher chance getting killed by a firearm. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/338 "2018-12-25T16:37:47Z")
> [@DirkHardly](#): > > However, when the “tool” in question is a gun there are some predictable effects: The predictable effect of a study about gun violence is that the gun is the focus and not the behavior behind it. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/339 "2018-12-25T16:52:08Z")
Let’s imagine, for a moment, that a magical force eliminates all personal firearms from the world in an instant, and magically keeps them gone for a period of one year. No handguns, no long guns, no small arms at all. **Magiver** , **Blues Man** , and the thread at large: During this Year of No Guns, do overall numbers of murders and suicides increase, decrease, or remain constant? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/340 "2018-12-25T17:20:32Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Let’s imagine, for a moment, that a magical force eliminates all personal firearms from the world in an instant, and magically keeps them gone for a period of one year. No handguns, no long guns, no small arms at all. > > **Magiver** , **Blues Man** , and the thread at large: During this Year of No Guns, do overall numbers of murders and suicides increase, decrease, or remain constant? Since guns don’t kill people the question doesn’t have an answer that doesn’t involve magic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781.md?page=18)