# How is the Constitutional Right to Bear Arms So Heavily Infringed Upon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781 "2018-12-08T04:16:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/341 "2018-12-25T17:52:35Z")
Where do you guys live that you are in such constant dire danger of a kill or be killed situation… Actually, I think that private carry for self defense (if you are properly trained) is a perfectly cromulent choice to make, but I am skeptical of any right being exempted from reasonable “time, place and manner” rules. OTOH neither am I a fan of rules so draconian that they mean you can’t do it at all. As to “if I see someone unarmed getting his ass kicked I will not intervene”, that is just using common caution, as most of us do not have the training to handle that, armed or not. HOWEVER to my ears the thought “if he has chosen not to be armed he has put his trust in others” steps into the realm of victim-blaming. Living in civilized society means NOT being in survival mode 24/7. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/342 "2018-12-25T18:11:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Since guns don’t kill people the question doesn’t have an answer that doesn’t involve magic. It’s not that hard a question to answer…unless the answer you might give is one you don’t want to hear. It’s really very simple-if there were no public access to firearms for a year do murders and/or suicide rates go up, stay the same or go down? What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/343 "2018-12-25T19:53:25Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Let’s imagine, for a moment, that a magical force eliminates all personal firearms from the world in an instant, and magically keeps them gone for a period of one year. No handguns, no long guns, no small arms at all. > > **Magiver** , **Blues Man** , and the thread at large: During this Year of No Guns, do overall numbers of murders and suicides increase, decrease, or remain constant? \*All \*guns? That would be a very weird year. Remember, now the Police don’t have guns, nor security guards. Initially, a sharp decrease. But crooks would quickly adapt with knives, zip guns, machetes and baseball bats, etc. The number would creep back up, but I dont think in a span of a year it would reach current levels. It may never reach current levels, but after a few years it’d get close. But now that you have your magic wand out, let use try two other things: 1. Eliminate poverty. The major cause of violent crime. I think that would keep murders and suicide down forever. or 2. Vanish all the violent felons from the earth. I think we’d have a decade or more of extremely low violent crime. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/344 "2018-12-25T20:21:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s not that hard a question to answer…unless the answer you might give is one you don’t want to hear. It’s really very simple-if there were no public access to firearms for a year do murders and/or suicide rates go up, stay the same or go down? What do you think? Suicide rates wouldn’t change. There are better ways to kill yourself with no risk of pain. Guns are a just a big “fuck you” to the people left behind. Murders by criminals would go up because everybody becomes a soft target and the gun is replaced by something else. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/345 "2018-12-25T21:58:34Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Where do you guys live that you are in such constant dire danger of a kill or be killed situation… I have to seriously wonder if that’s what they often actually _hope_ for - a chance to be a hero, at least in their own minds. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/346 "2018-12-25T22:15:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Suicide rates wouldn’t change. There are better ways to kill yourself with no risk of pain. Guns are a just a big “fuck you” to the people left behind. > > Murders by criminals would go up because everybody becomes a soft target and the gun is replaced by something else. While logic causes me to disagree with your conclusions, I notice that you managed to reach them without the use of any magic whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/347 "2018-12-25T22:43:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I have to seriously wonder if that’s what they often actually _hope_ for - a chance to be a hero, at least in their own minds. The idea is to defend your home vs a home invasion before the police get there. The police might well take too long. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/348 "2018-12-26T01:22:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Eliminate poverty. The major cause of violent crime. I think that would keep murders and suicide down forever. Hey, finally, a platform we can all be for… though it would take a \*long \*time to come about minus magic wand. But true, taking out the guns is addressing the symptom and not the root disease, but sometimes that’s all you can. Alas, you can’t even get people to agree on how to eliminate poverty w/o getting bent out of shape about how _that also_ interferes with their \*FrreeEEEduUHMMM! \*so instead we get the crime all the same, and then arguments as to whether guns help fight it or make it worse. > [@Magiver](#): > > Murders by criminals would go up because everybody becomes a soft target and the gun is replaced by something else. Yeah, yeah, the ravening hordes are out there about to pounce on us all if not for the guns. Please. In any case except for specific places of high incidence (e.g. Chicago, Baltimore) in the USA in general murder is way down from historic peaks. What we have now instead is the phenomenon of the mass shooting occupying the public mind – which is why so much attention is given to a _weapon class_ that makes up a _minority_ of total crimes: because the crimes when it \*does \*show up are so prominent. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/349 "2018-12-26T01:39:58Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > In any case except for specific places of high incidence (e.g. Chicago, Baltimore) in the USA in general murder is way down from historic peaks. And gun ownership is up. So, what’s your point? > [@JRDelirious](#): > > What we have now instead is the phenomenon of the mass shooting occupying the public mind – which is why so much attention is given to a _weapon class_ that makes up a _minority_ of total crimes: because the crimes when it \*does \*show up are so prominent. We’ve always had guns. Nothing has changed in that respect. The question to ask is what has changed in regards to social behavior? You can debate that all you want. What you can’t debate is the inability of police to protect people in a timely manner. Can’t be done. Then the debate is whether or not citizens are accorded the same right to defend themselves as the police. ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/350 "2018-12-26T11:22:29Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > And the answer is, if everyone else in my environment gets to have one too, then there is a higher chance getting killed by a firearm. So if you ban them no one will be able to get a gun? Are you that naive? ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/351 "2018-12-26T11:25:13Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Let’s imagine, for a moment, that a magical force eliminates all personal firearms from the world in an instant, and magically keeps them gone for a period of one year. No handguns, no long guns, no small arms at all. > > **Magiver** , **Blues Man** , and the thread at large: During this Year of No Guns, do overall numbers of murders and suicides increase, decrease, or remain constant? I don’t deal in fantasy. But I do know that states with very strict gun laws don’t necessarily have the lowest murder rates nor do states with very lax gun laws necessarily have the highest murder rates Guns are not the problem ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/352 "2018-12-26T11:28:38Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Where do you guys live that you are in such constant dire danger of a kill or be killed situation… > > Actually, I think that private carry for self defense (if you are properly trained) is a perfectly cromulent choice to make, but I am skeptical of any right being exempted from reasonable “time, place and manner” rules. OTOH neither am I a fan of rules so draconian that they mean you can’t do it at all. > > As to “if I see someone unarmed getting his ass kicked I will not intervene”, that is just using common caution, as most of us do not have the training to handle that, armed or not. HOWEVER to my ears the thought “if he has chosen not to be armed he has put his trust in others” steps into the realm of victim-blaming. Living in civilized society means NOT being in survival mode 24/7. So respecting a person’s choice is now victim blaming? And one can be prepared without being in “survival mode”. I have fire insurance for my home but I’m not in constant worry that my house will burn down. Fortune favors the prepared ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/353 "2018-12-26T11:29:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The idea is to defend your home vs a home invasion before the police get there. The police might well take too long. The police have absolutely no legal obligation to come to your aid. So they might not show up at all ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/354 "2018-12-26T11:48:23Z")
> [@Blues\_Man](#): > > So if you ban them no one will be able to get a gun? > > Are you that naive? There would be an adjustment period where society re-engineers itself - two or more generations at least, I guess. Sacrifices would have to be made. But sacrifices are made in wartime too. I’m not saying it’s worth it or even desireable. Just saying that it is possible if you (as a people) wanted it done. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/355 "2018-12-26T13:11:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The idea is to defend your home vs a home invasion before the police get there. The police might well take too long. Yeah, that’s pretty much what I said. Now how about the idea behind carrying \*outside \*your home? ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/356 "2018-12-26T13:53:53Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > There would be an adjustment period where society re-engineers itself - two or more generations at least, I guess. Sacrifices would have to be made. But sacrifices are made in wartime too. > > I’m not saying it’s worth it or even desireable. Just saying that it is possible if you (as a people) wanted it done. I don’t think it is possible to ban guns from the public completely. We have experience with prohibition. Prohibition causes an expansion of illicit markets and the violence that goes along with them. We’ve seen it with alcohol and drugs thus there is no reason to think it will work with firearms ---
**Author:** ![Blues\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@Blues\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blues_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/357 "2018-12-26T13:55:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yeah, that’s pretty much what I said. > > Now how about the idea behind carrying \*outside \*your home? A person has just as much of a right to defend himself outside of his home as he does in it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/358 "2018-12-26T14:37:46Z")
> [@Blues\_Man](#): > > A person has just as much of a right to defend himself outside of his home as he does in it. I’m not sure that’s been formalized in law, but it seems wrong to me. If a stranger is in your home, you might reasonably presume them to be an intruder. If a stranger approaches you on the sidewalk, you may not (absent other evidence) reasonably presume them to be an assailant, even if they get physically closer to you than the presumed home intruder. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/359 "2018-12-26T14:47:07Z")
> [@Blues\_Man](#): > > So if you ban them no one will be able to get a gun? > > Are you that naive? As it stands, I could actually buy a gun from the black market for about 25% of the cost of buying it from the gun shop. I would probably be dealing with a stolen gun, or maybe it was pawned off for drugs or something else. As a criminal, I could have easier access to guns than as a law abiding citizen, and that is specifically because of how easy it is for a law abiding citizen to get a gun, and how little responsibility they are asked to keep of it. Should it be harder for law abiding citizens to get a gun, and should they act in a way that reduces the chances that they accidently misplace it, then it will be harder for guns to get onto the black market, driving up the price. With guns being as cheap an easy as they are to get, a criminal will get one. You restrict the flow of guns into the black market, and gun prices will rise. Instead of every petty criminal who wants to hold up a store having access to a gun, and suddenly, you are being asked thousands of dollars for a black market gun, do you think that that will have any effect on the chances of criminals using guns to commit crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/360 "2018-12-26T14:59:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why not? I mean then only criminals in that city would have guns. But see, that’s my point. Gun control, no matter how stringent or how wide- simply does not work in the USA.\* We have NEVER had the type of stringent gun control I speak across the whole of the US. For the last time, stringent gun control in a single state of course will do no good. > [@](#): > > Three Amendments gutted. Where did the idea come from that the 2nd amendment and others was handed down on a tablet to Moses? So what if an amendment is gutted? We can add 'em, and we can take 'em away. I know, I know, _in theory_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781.md?page=19)