# How is the Constitutional Right to Bear Arms So Heavily Infringed Upon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781 "2018-12-08T04:16:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/441 "2018-12-31T06:54:41Z")
I am coming to this late and have not read the whole thread but I will respond to the OP with this: 1. NO constitutional right is without restriction. Not even free speech (e.g. libel/slander laws). 2. IF you read the second amendment literally it makes no mention of guns. It says “arms” which means any weapon. So yeah, it would mean you could have a nuclear weapon. A prospect I assume the OP is not ok with. Therefore, some restrictions on the second amendment are in order. Once you agree to that then there really is no limit to where you can draw the line. As it stands the government restricts your access to many and most arms pretty significantly. You have no “right” to “any weapon.” You have a right to whatever the government says you have a right to. Has always been so. As such the government saying you only have access to (say) bolt action long guns would be in perfect keeping with the government restricting your firearm ownership. Once you wrap your head around that the 2nd amendment is mostly meaningless and means whatever we, as a society, says it means. Put another way, we could ban guns tomorrow and declare pointy sticks (aka pencils) as the only thing you have a right to when it comes to bearing arms. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/442 "2018-12-31T07:03:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There are multiple stories in the news every day that demonstrate otherwise, not that proof of something so completely fucking obvious should actually be required. > > What doesn’t?You gun lovers are not “law-abiding citizens” after all? If that’s what it takes to make you respect the rest of the Constitution and its spirit, sure, why not? We’ve amended it many times before. It isn’t holy scripture. > > So that \*all \*of us can \*be \*safer. > > The ones who have been conditioned to live in fear and fantasy by an industry that profits tremendously from that fear and fantasy? Those people? You’d continue to live in fear and fantasy anyway, or eventually learn not to. Maybe. > > I also trust you’ll not bother us again with stories about your life on the tough streets as a “fed”, and all the violence you’ve witnessed investigating money laundering, okay? Does a murder committed baseball bat mean we need to ban bats? You can’t show that having more guns makes you less safe, while many people think that more guns makes them more safe. There are 100 Million gun owners, some are bound to be unreasonable. No, so that _you_ can _feel_ safer. I have no idea of what that last personal crack is supposed to mean. Drug money launderers and terrorist financing are some pretty violent nasty people. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/443 "2018-12-31T07:15:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sounds like a wonderful idea. > Please define “reasonable”, and tell us how you propose to get the laws changed to allow this idea to work? Non criminals. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/444 "2018-12-31T07:20:39Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am coming to this late and have not read the whole thread but I will respond to the OP with this: > > 1. NO constitutional right is without restriction. Not even free speech (e.g. libel/slander laws). > 2. IF you read the second amendment literally it makes no mention of guns. It says “arms” which means any weapon. So yeah, it would mean you could have a nuclear weapon. A prospect I assume the OP is not ok with. > > Therefore, some restrictions on the second amendment are in order. > > Once you agree to that then there really is no limit to where you can draw the line. As it stands the government restricts your access to many and most arms pretty significantly. You have no “right” to “any weapon.” You have a right to whatever the government says you have a right to. Has always been so. Except that SCOTUS has already ruled on this. You can’t ban handguns or rifles or shotguns. You can ban machineguns, sawed off shotguns and etc. Heller made it pretty clear- we _do_ have a right to own a gun for self defense. You cannot have a _prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense._ " \*Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56. (3) The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition – in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute – would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional.\* ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/445 "2018-12-31T07:22:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Except that SCOTUS has already ruled on this. The point is SCOTUS can make whatever rules they want regarding this and have already done so as you just noted. Today they say one thing. Tomorrow they may say another. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/446 "2018-12-31T12:57:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Does a murder committed baseball bat mean we need to ban bats? You’ve heard and seen that argument debunked many times before. Go on, tell us how it goes. > [@](#): > > You can’t show that having more guns makes you less safe Again, there are counterexamples in the news every day. > [@](#): > > while many people think that more guns makes them more safe. They’re wrong, in every possible way there is to be wrong. > [@](#): > > There are 100 Million gun owners, some are bound to be unreasonable. But you don’t want anything done about that, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/447 "2018-12-31T19:25:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’ve heard and seen that argument debunked many times before. Go on, tell us how it goes. the UK is trying to do just that. Taking away a weapon doesn’t remove intent as they found out with guns. Now they’re trying to take away knives. All they’ve done is empower gangs and endanger individuals. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But you don’t want anything done about that, do you? I want to be able to defend myself. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/448 "2018-12-31T19:47:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Non criminals. When it comes to the word “reasonable” it seems you’ve set an extremely low bar. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/449 "2018-12-31T19:49:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am coming to this late and have not read the whole thread but I will respond to the OP with this: > > 1. NO constitutional right is without restriction. Not even free speech (e.g. libel/slander laws). > 2. IF you read the second amendment literally it makes no mention of guns. It says “arms” which means any weapon. So yeah, it would mean you could have a nuclear weapon. A prospect I assume the OP is not ok with. > > Therefore, some restrictions on the second amendment are in order. > > Once you agree to that then there really is no limit to where you can draw the line. As it stands the government restricts your access to many and most arms pretty significantly. You have no “right” to “any weapon.” You have a right to whatever the government says you have a right to. Has always been so. > > As such the government saying you only have access to (say) bolt action long guns would be in perfect keeping with the government restricting your firearm ownership. > Once you wrap your head around that the 2nd amendment is mostly meaningless and means whatever we, as a society, says it means. > > Put another way, we could ban guns tomorrow and declare pointy sticks (aka pencils) as the only thing you have a right to when it comes to bearing arms. Under this analysis, could the government say that your right to free speech is satisfied by being permitted to whisper in your own home only? Please show how that conclusion is any different than your argument regarding the 2nd Amendment. Hint: when your analysis leads to to believe that a right recognized by the Bill of Rights is “mostly meaningless” you have made a mistake somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/450 "2018-12-31T20:13:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’ve heard and seen that argument debunked many times before. Go on, tell us how it goes. > > Again, there are counterexamples in the news every day. > > They’re wrong, in every possible way there is to be wrong. > > But you don’t want anything done about that, do you? So you think. There are examples in the press about baseball bats and machete being used for murder- does having less of them make us more safe? Should we ban those? So you think. No, in general i dont want 100 million Americans to be made felons. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/451 "2018-12-31T20:17:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When it comes to the word “reasonable” it seems you’ve set an extremely low bar. I debate with you, dont I? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/452 "2018-12-31T20:18:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Assuming that the pro-gun people are just as concerned about all the firearms deaths that take place in this country as anyone else here, may I ask how many threads on that subject have been started by posters on that side of the aisle? Are there threads out there where the pro-gun people tried to find ways to lower the amount of violence caused by firearms in this country? Anything from the pro-gun side at all? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/453 "2018-12-31T20:42:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Anything from the pro-gun side at all? There are so many gun threads here, that starting another is rather silly. And us “pro gun side” have suggested ways to reduce violent crime: Better mental health support Fighting poverty ending the war on drugs fighting racism. Tougher sentencing for violent offenders. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/454 "2018-12-31T20:47:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Tougher sentencing for violent offenders. Does that last one work in regards to violent gun use rates? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/455 "2018-12-31T21:20:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does that last one work in regards to violent gun use rates? Why are you concerned with \*violent gun use rates \*as opposed to violent crime rates? If the gun death rate went down by 20% but the murder rate stayed the same, that wouldnt really be a improvement. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/456 "2018-12-31T21:25:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why are you concerned with \*violent gun use rates \*as opposed to violent crime rates? > > If the gun death rate went down by 20% but the murder rate stayed the same, that wouldnt really be a improvement. _You_ posted it as a direct response to my post on firearms violence. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/457 "2018-12-31T21:28:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _You_ posted it as a direct response to my post on firearms violence. Yes, I posted “Tougher sentencing for violent offenders.” Not “Tougher sentencing for violent offenders, but only if the violence is done by firearm.” However, there are currently add on in many states where years are added if you use a firearm during the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/458 "2018-12-31T21:38:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, I posted “Tougher sentencing for violent offenders.” Not “Tougher sentencing for violent offenders, but only if the violence is done by firearm.” > > However, there are currently add on in many states where years are added if you use a firearm during the crime. _Does it work?_ Does tougher sentencing for violent offenders cause violent gun rates to go down? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/459 "2018-12-31T21:40:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why are you concerned with \*violent gun use rates \*as opposed to violent crime rates? > > If the gun death rate went down by 20% but the murder rate stayed the same, that wouldnt really be a improvement. Because it helps with statistics just like using suicides by gun as padding for these statistics. I think it is only fair, trying to be neutral, to quit using this type of diversion. I continue to believe that the other side comes from a position of lack of experience and knowledge of guns that leads to an irrational fear of them. So, instead of confronting the fear, they want to wish guns away into the cornfield like that little boy in the Twilight Zone episode. They are generally smart people and they know deep down that can’t happen (hey, let’s just ban drugs and problem solved, right!) but allowing law-abiding people to own guns does not solve the solution in their minds because they won’t buy any even if legal because of their fear. So their fear boils down to OMG! More guns! In our minds we view guns as positives: hunting, target shooting, protection. We have generally been exposed to them as young teenagers. When I was 16, I always bought rifle ammunition before deer season at the local hardware store. Once, I stopped at Wal-Mart and the clerk would not sell them to me because I was underage. I was dumbfounded. I mean, here’s my hunting license; I need ammo to hunt, right? I think today I would have been arrested if I tried. They have been exposed to them in movies and in news broadcasts. That is where the disconnect comes from and why we always talk past each other in these threads: We are not coming from the same basis of thought. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781/460 "2018-12-31T21:43:20Z")
That sounds…reasonable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-the-constitutional-right-to-bear-arms-so-heavily-infringed-upon/825781.md?page=24)