How is the Constitutional Right to Bear Arms So Heavily Infringed Upon?

[Fiddle_Peghead]

@Bone

No - I don’t share your morality. Your hope is for naught.

I said we need to find some way to reduce murders. Surely you aren’t saying that this isn’t the moral thing to do.

[Fiddle_Peghead]

@andros

Let’s imagine, for a moment, that a magical force eliminates all personal firearms from the world in an instant, and magically keeps them gone for a period of one year. No handguns, no long guns, no small arms at all.

Magiver, Blues Man, and the thread at large: During this Year of No Guns, do overall numbers of murders and suicides increase, decrease, or remain constant?

Give it up, andros. In my experience, you will never get one of these gun owners to admit that the answer to this question is “decrease”, not even by a single murder. It’s pathetic, really.

[Fiddle_Peghead]

@Blues_Man

I don’t deal in fantasy.
…

Guns are not the problem

I’ve never seen a quicker contradiction in my life.

[Fiddle_Peghead]

@Blues_Man

So if you ban them no one will be able to get a gun?

Are you that naive?

What do you suppose would happen to the gun industry if we did in fact ban them? Do you think they would keep manufacturing them and just give them away?

[Blues_Man]

@Bryan_Ekers

I’m not sure that’s been formalized in law, but it seems wrong to me. If a stranger is in your home, you might reasonably presume them to be an intruder. If a stranger approaches you on the sidewalk, you may not (absent other evidence) reasonably presume them to be an assailant, even if they get physically closer to you than the presumed home intruder.

Of course you have a right to defend yourself no matter where you are

Self defense cases must be proven.

If you injure anyone and claim it is self defense there is no presumption of innocence on your part.

You have acknowledged that you did indeed commit the act it is now up to you to prove it was justified.

No one will be able to just shoot any person walking towards them and be able to call it self defense

[Blues_Man]

@Fiddle_Peghead

What do you suppose would happen to the gun industry if we did in fact ban them? Do you think they would keep manufacturing them and just give them away?

You do know that a gun can be serviceable for decades don’t you?

I’ve shot pistols and rifles that were over 100 years old

[Blues_Man]

@Fiddle_Peghead

I’ve never seen a quicker contradiction in my life.

Guns don’t cause crime
Guns don’t cause murder

Guns are a neutral entity

It’s people that are the problem

[Blues_Man]

@Fiddle_Peghead

Give it up, andros. In my experience, you will never get one of these gun owners to admit that the answer to this question is “decrease”, not even by a single murder. It’s pathetic, really.

I prefer to deal in reality not fantasy

[Blues_Man]

@Fiddle_Peghead

I said we need to find some way to reduce murders. Surely you aren’t saying that this isn’t the moral thing to do.

preventing people who will never commit murder from owning firearms won’t reduce the number of murders

[Blues_Man]

@k9bfriender

As it stands, I could actually buy a gun from the black market for about 25% of the cost of buying it from the gun shop. I would probably be dealing with a stolen gun, or maybe it was pawned off for drugs or something else. As a criminal, I could have easier access to guns than as a law abiding citizen, and that is specifically because of how easy it is for a law abiding citizen to get a gun, and how little responsibility they are asked to keep of it.

Should it be harder for law abiding citizens to get a gun, and should they act in a way that reduces the chances that they accidently misplace it, then it will be harder for guns to get onto the black market, driving up the price.

With guns being as cheap an easy as they are to get, a criminal will get one. You restrict the flow of guns into the black market, and gun prices will rise. Instead of every petty criminal who wants to hold up a store having access to a gun, and suddenly, you are being asked thousands of dollars for a black market gun, do you think that that will have any effect on the chances of criminals using guns to commit crimes?

I’ve never tried to buy an illegal firearm so I cannot verify your claim as to the price.

But why should the activities of law abiding people be curbed in any way?

If I have a clean record and can pass any background check thrown at me why should it be made more difficult for me to own a firearm?

IMO if I own guns and they are in my home then they are secured as someone would have to illegally enter my home to take them.

WHy is it you think a gun owner is responsible for the crimes of other people?

[k9bfriender]

@Blues_Man

I’ve never tried to buy an illegal firearm so I cannot verify your claim as to the price.

I’ve never tried to either, but I have had them offered.

But why should the activities of law abiding people be curbed in any way?

Because it is legal to consider your couch cushions to be an adequate storage place. I’d like to curb that.

If I have a clean record and can pass any background check thrown at me why should it be made more difficult for me to own a firearm?

Because just having a clean record and passing a background check does not meant that you are actually a responsible individual who will take the responsibility of owning a lethal object seriously.

IMO if I own guns and they are in my home then they are secured as someone would have to illegally enter my home to take them.

Oh, well, if it is illegal to enter your home, then obviously criminals will not enter your home, so there is no need to secure your guns.

Are you the only person who is ever legally allowed to enter your home? Is there no one else that ever comes in or visits?

WHy is it you think a gun owner is responsible for the crimes of other people?

Why do you think I think that?

[Czarcasm]

@Blues_Man

preventing people who will never commit murder from owning firearms won’t reduce the number of murders

What a wonderful thought.
Can you give me a list of those people who will never commit murder…and maybe some insight as to how you determined who they might be?

[DrDeth]

@ElvisL1ves

Yeah, that’s pretty much what I said.

Now how about the idea behind carrying *outside *your home?

People indeed have defensive gun uses- even without firing a shot. On these boards i have mentioned two that occurred during the few years I had a CCW.

[DrDeth]

@Bryan_Ekers

I’m not sure that’s been formalized in law, but it seems wrong to me. If a stranger is in your home, you might reasonably presume them to be an intruder. If a stranger approaches you on the sidewalk, you may not (absent other evidence) reasonably presume them to be an assailant, even if they get physically closer to you than the presumed home intruder.

Sure, which is why you dont shoot them. In my two cases, one had a couple tough looking homeless guys with improvised weapons demanding cash. I just had to show them the gun. In another we went to help a woman who was being dragged into a ally. There, I had to actually point the gun and yell.

[DrDeth]

@Fiddle_Peghead

We have NEVER had the type of stringent gun control I speak across the whole of the US. For the last time, stringent gun control in a single state of course will do no good.

Thank you for admitting that.

So the only way to make gun control work is to get rid of the 2nd Ad. Then pass a federal gun ban law, one that usurps States rights.

Since neither will ever happen, why bother with all the little crappy gun laws?

[DrDeth]

@Fiddle_Peghead

Give it up, andros. In my experience, you will never get one of these gun owners to admit that the answer to this question is “decrease”, not even by a single murder. It’s pathetic, really.

Actually, I did.

I admit that if you had a magic wand and waved it and got rid of all the guns (even better, all the non-police & military guns) there would be a drop in murders. How long that would last is the question.

Of course, I also admit that if we waved that magic wand and eliminate poverty that would be ten time better.

However, we dont have magic wands, and short of that gun control laws are useless, as Fiddle Peghead and other have admitted.

[k9bfriender]

@DrDeth

People indeed have defensive gun uses- even without firing a shot. On these boards i have mentioned two that occurred during the few years I had a CCW.

Yes, you have mentioned times when you felt in danger enough to brandish your gun in order to strike fear into those making you afraid.

Then you said that it wasn’t that big a deal, nothing to report to authorities.

I don’t really see that, personally. If someone has made me fearful enough that I feel that I need a gun to protect myself, I wouldn’t just leave that danger for the next person to encounter, that, IMHO, is the actions of a very irresponsible gun owner.

[DrDeth]

@k9bfriender

Yes, you have mentioned times when you felt in danger enough to brandish your gun in order to strike fear into those making you afraid.

Then you said that it wasn’t that big a deal, nothing to report to authorities.

I don’t really see that, personally. If someone has made me fearful enough that I feel that I need a gun to protect myself, I wouldn’t just leave that danger for the next person to encounter, that, IMHO, is the actions of a very irresponsible gun owner.

In the first, what are the police gonna do?

Well, in the second case, the woman who was being assaulted did call the police, so why should I?

And also in the second case-** I** wasn’t afraid- the woman being dragged into the alley was very much afraid. Do you think I should have just let her go?

[k9bfriender]

@DrDeth

In the first, what are the police gonna do?

Check out the area and ask any homeless people that are assaulting passersby to move on. If they witness such assaults, or they are reported by others, then take them into custody.

You know, police stuff.

Well, in the second case, the woman who was being assaulted did call the police, so why should I?

As a witness, as a citizen who can corroborate her story. As a person who wouldn’t just leave a woman who was just assaulted on the side of the road by herself.

And also in the second case-** I** wasn’t afraid- the woman being dragged into the alley was very much afraid. Do you think I should have just let her go?

Yes, that is the dichotomy here. If you didn’t have your gun on you, then you would have just had to let her go, and there is not a thing that you could have done about it.

If you hadn’t had your gun on you that day, you would have had to just keep on walking, leaving her to her fate.

People aren’t heroes, guns are heroes!

[DrDeth]

@k9bfriender

Check out the area and ask any homeless people that are assaulting passersby to move on. If they witness such assaults, or they are reported by others, then take them into custody.

You know, police stuff.

As a witness, as a citizen who can corroborate her story. As a person who wouldn’t just leave a woman who was just assaulted on the side of the road by herself.
Yes, that is the dichotomy here. If you didn’t have your gun on you, then you would have just had to let her go, and there is not a thing that you could have done about it.

If you hadn’t had your gun on you that day, you would have had to just keep on walking, leaving her to her fate.

People aren’t heroes, guns are heroes!

You havent worked with the police like I have. Homeless guys in SF? With the SF PD? It is to laff.

I took her into the bookstore where she called the police. The clerk was also a witness.

No, I would have yelled, maybe tried something- maybe have gotten knifed for my heroism. Or maybe he would have run. Be even after the clerk and I yelled at him, he didnt stop.

So, yeah, you can make a dozen scenarios, but I know that in the one that actually happened, we were all unhurt and the woman still had her purse.