# How is this NOT a hate crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310 "2003-06-16T21:39:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/61 "2003-06-17T20:09:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zebra \* > \*\ ***Mockingbird** > > THE VICTIM DID NOT DIE. > > I’ve been in a few dorms in my life, though never at this particular school, and the showers are never that far away. \*\* **Whoopie fuck.** I made an error. Attempted manslaughter isn’t much better. It doesn’t minimize what he did or why. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/62 "2003-06-17T20:30:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > \*\ ***Whoopie fuck.** > > I made an error. > > Attempted manslaughter isn’t much better. > > It doesn’t minimize what he did or why. \*\* Well in a legal sense, it does make a big difference if the victim dies or not in dertiming how much prison time a person gets. Oh and the DA only charged the guy with assault and battery, not ‘attempted manslaughter’. (is there such a charge?) Ok this 19-year-old has been sentenced to prison till he turns 29. Some people think that is too little. So how many years do you want him to serve? Oh and from [this site](http://www.planetout.com/pno/news/search.html?related=1&search=news_articles.2003/06/12/2) come the descrition of the attack from the victim. > [@](#): > > According to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Love testified that Price got enraged when he talked to him in the shower right before the Sunday morning attack. “I started to speak when he turned around enraged, screaming,” Love said on June 9, the first day of the trial. > > “I stood there in shock,” Love testified. “He said, ‘What the [expletive] you looking at, faggot?’” Love, who was not wearing his glasses, testified that he mistakenly confused Price for his roommate. He also testified that Price continued screaming as he left the shower, despite the fact that Love told Price he was not gay and didn’t know him. > > Love then said that a few moments later Price hit him in the back of the head with a hard object, causing Love to fall down in the shower stall. > > “He continued to bash my head, and he’s yelling, and, you know, I’m in a panic,” Love testified. > > After the attack, Love went to the campus health facility, then to the Atlanta Medical Center, where he received surgery for a blood clot in his brain caused by the beating. The attack and surgery left Love with a scar across his head. A few moments. That is all the time it took for Price to leave the showers and get the bat and return. Apparently Love was able to walk to the student health center for treatment. Hardly being beaten to within an inch of his life. Price turned himself in and admited to the beating. Now I don’t know if Price had some sort of criminal record. If not, then 10 years for a first offense is pretty steep in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/63 "2003-06-17T20:47:29Z")
> [@](#): > > One more time: Price wouldn’t have assaulted Love if he hadn’t thought Love was gay. Well, no - he assaulted Love because Love peeked at him in the shower. He did not assume that Love was gay until after the triggering incident had occurred, which was the peeking. In other words, Love (accidentally) looked in on him in the shower, which was enough for Price to a) attack him with a baseball bat, and b) assume he was gay. > [@](#): > > He also testified that Price continued screaming as he left the shower, despite the fact that **Love told Price he was not gay** and didn’t know him. Bolding added. It seems that any crime against a person who is known or suspected to be gay is a hate crime. I disagree. It was wrong, it was evil, it was a gross over-reaction to a trivial incident, and it shows that Price was a dangerous and violent criminal. But it wasn’t a hate crime. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/64 "2003-06-17T21:02:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zebra \* > Oh and the DA only charged the guy with assault and battery, not ‘attempted manslaughter’. (is there such a charge?) No, there is no such thing as “attempted manslaughter”. This is a classic question, actually. You can only attempt specific intent crimes, since attempt is having the intent to do the crime, acting in some way to try to carry out that intent, but failing to succeed. Manslaughter is a general intent crime that cannot be attempted. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/65 "2003-06-17T21:05:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\*…And I will stand by my declaration of terrorism. Did his actions put the entire campus in fear? I’m sure it did. Did his actions put the GLBT community in fear? I’d say _double_, as the attack was clearly a gay-bashing (if not from a legal standpoint, from an emotional standpoint). Let the punishment fit the crime. > > Esprix \*\* I disagree. Terrorists _intend_ to spread terror through a population through their violence. In fact, widespread terror is the goal of the violence. The victims are incidental, their identities relatively unimportant in the larger scheme of terrorism. I think it would be really stretching to infer that Price intended to terrify the campus. Remember the serial killer who killed several women on a Florida campus, and basically shut down the whole campus? Scum as he was, I don’t think anyone characterized him as a terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/66 "2003-06-17T21:19:27Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Shodan_ > Well, no - he assaulted Love because Love peeked at him in the shower. He did not assume that Love was gay until after the triggering incident had occurred, which was the peeking. But he _did_ think that Love was gay. He felt threatened because he thought Love was gay. He didn’t attack Love because he thought someone had peeked on him, he attacked Love because he thought a _gay man_ had peeked on him. Price’s perception of Love’s sexual orientation was a motivating factor in the assault. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > He also testified that Price continued screaming as he left the shower, despite the fact that **Love told Price he was not gay and didn’t know him.** > > Bolding added. (From **Zebra** ’s link) “Price left the shower area, went back to his dorm room for the bat and then returned, beating Love and **allegedly yelling anti-gay epithets**.” Bolding added. It would seem Price didn’t get the message. > [@](#): > > It seems that any crime against a person who is known or suspected to be gay is a hate crime. I disagree. I disagree too. Of course, I never said that, ever. What I _said_ was: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Orbifold_ > […] > Price beat Love because he thought Love was gay. > […] > …Love’s perceived homosexuality was a motive for the assault. > […] > But there’s ample reason to believe that Price’s belief that Love was gay was a motive for Price’s assault. > […] > My assertion – that Price was motivated by his perception of Love’s sexual orientation – is, on the other hand, supported by the facts. > […] Note how the theme of **MOTIVE** runs through all of those quotes? An astute reader might reach the conclusion that I think Price’s assault was **MOTIVATED** by his perception of Love’s sexual orientation, and that maybe, just maybe, I think Price’s **MOTIVES** are relevant to whether or not this is a hate crime. (Is _anyone_ in this thread claiming that “any crime against a person who is known or suspected to be gay is a hate crime”? Or is that just a gigantic fucking strawman?) ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/67 "2003-06-17T21:24:32Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s bad to beat someone with a baseball bat. But, it’s really, really bad to beat someone who is gay with a baseball bat. Hate crime laws are a way for society to express the particular offensiveness of attacking somebody because of their race, religion, nationality or sexual orientation. The fear that it instills within these vulnerable groups is especially reprehensible, so it warrants a greater punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/68 "2003-06-17T21:34:21Z")
Bigotry is punished by the law in other ways as well, which are much less disputed than these “hate crime” laws. For example, laws that prohibit discimination in employment because of race or sex. For example, an employer randomly firing an employee is not treated the same as an employer whose motivation for firing an employee was bigotry against the employee for being black. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/69 "2003-06-18T13:47:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > **I know it’s another debate entirely, but it just doesn’t make sense that if the victim of this case was gay than the attacker would have gotten double the sentance.** Of course it doesn’t make sense. That’s because you seem to have a pretty mistaken impression as to what a hate crime is. It’s not a hate crime to beat a gay person, it’s a hate crime to beat a person _because_ they are, or you percieve them to be, gay (Or whatever group). And while most wouldn’t think of it, you don’t have to be a minority, or percieved to be a minority, for it to apply. If you go out and kill a white man for being white, you can get charged with a hate crime. And it has happened. Gobear, you should note that, too. It isn’t a case of an assault on a gay victim being prosecuted more than one on a straight victim. It’s not more protection for gays than for straights. The hate crime laws go for _both_ sides. If a gay guy assaults someone because he doesn’t like straight people, and thinks that person is, then he could get charged, too. Hate crimes laws don’t give “special protection” to any group, it applies to all groups. It’s a fact that many seem to forget. And what Blalron said, too. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/70 "2003-06-18T14:57:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > Of course it doesn’t make sense. That’s because you seem to have a pretty mistaken impression as to what a hate crime is. It’s not a hate crime to beat a gay person, it’s a hate crime to beat a person _because_ they are, or you percieve them to be, gay (Or whatever group). And while most wouldn’t think of it, you don’t have to be a minority, or percieved to be a minority, for it to apply. If you go out and kill a white man for being white, you can get charged with a hate crime. And it has happened. You are talking about how the laws are intended. I was more referring to the way they are actually applied. It’s just MHO, but if every other fact in this case were the same and the victim were in fact gay, I think this would have been prosecuted as a hate crime. Has there ever been a case of a hate crime successfully prosecuted for gay bashing when the victim was in fact not gay? I would imagine not, or at the very least it’s rare. Going forward with that assumption, the same guy for the same crime gets 20 years instead of 10. That’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/71 "2003-06-18T15:00:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Orbifold \* > **But he _did_ think that Love was gay. He felt threatened because he thought Love was gay. He didn’t attack Love because he thought someone had peeked on him, he attacked Love because he thought a _gay man_ had peeked on him. Price’s perception of Love’s sexual orientation was a motivating factor in the assault.** No, Price’s perception of Love’s sexual orientation was a consequence of the motivating factor for the assault, which was Price being peeked on. There is no prior evidence (AFAIK) that Price hated gays before the incident occured. In other words, being peeked on in the shower was sufficient in and of itself to trigger the assault. Price’s homophobia did not manifest itself until after the triggering incident occured. As far as I can tell, Price formed the intent to commit the crime at the same time that he formed the opinion that Love was gay. It did not precede the formulation of intent, and therefore could not have been its motivating factor. The triggering event for both the assault and the homophobia was the peeking. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Orbifold \* > \*\* > (From **Zebra** ’s link) “Price left the shower area, went back to his dorm room for the bat and then returned, beating Love and **allegedly yelling anti-gay epithets**.” Bolding added. It would seem Price didn’t get the message. > \*\* True. But notice that even after Price knew, or should have known, that Love was straight, he continued with the assault. It looks to me as if Price was going to attack anyone, gay or straight, who peeked at him in the shower. This peeking caused Price to do two things - - Form the criminal intent to commit assault with a baseball bat - Form an opinion - a wrong opinion, in this case - as to the sexual orientation of the one who peeked at him But again, the wrong opinion did not precede, and could not have been a motivator, in forming the criminal intent. To repeat, I think someone who would attack another person on so flimsy a pretext (“He peeked at me in the shower!”) has committed a dangerous crime, regardless of the sexual orientation of his victim. I think he is dangerous because he over-reacted, to a much greater degree than he would be if motivated by homophobia. You are correct in stating that no one has come right out and said that this is a hate crime because the victim was perceived as gay. But that seems to me to be the trend of the discussion. This is why I posted the example of the gay man who beats his lover for wrongly thinking he is cheating on him. This would also be an example of a gay man being beaten, under circumstances that would not occur if the victim were not gay, but where sexual orientation is not the primary motivation for the attack. Unless the argument is really that hate crime occurs anytime a gay person is attacked. In which case it would be a hate crime to steal a gay man’s wallet just to get his money, even if you had no idea that he was gay. Which is why I find it hard to see what hate crime legislation adds to the fight against crime. Anyone who would attack another over a trivial incident like this is a dangerous person, gay or straight. In the same way, people who would beat up a stranger are dangerous criminals, no matter if they are gay-bashing or just livening up a dull Saturday night. And I would argue that any punishment that should be applied to hate criminals should be applied to anyone else who would commit crimes with similar circumstances. IANAL. YMMV. Good thing Price is in prison. And so on. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/72 "2003-06-18T15:19:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*IANAL. \*\* Maybe you should try it. You can obfuscate with the best of them. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/73 "2003-06-18T15:26:31Z")
As the guy who cleaned up after the elephants in the circus said when offered a job at Walmarts - “What? And give up show business?” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/74 "2003-06-18T15:59:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*You are correct in stating that no one has come right out and said that this is a hate crime because the victim was perceived as gay. But that seems to me to be the trend of the discussion. This is why I posted the example of the gay man who beats his lover for wrongly thinking he is cheating on him. This would also be an example of a gay man being beaten, under circumstances that would not occur if the victim were not gay, but where sexual orientation is not the primary motivation for the attack. > > Unless the argument is really that hate crime occurs anytime a gay person is attacked. In which case it would be a hate crime to steal a gay man’s wallet just to get his money, even if you had no idea that he was gay.\*\* “No one’s actually made this argument, but I think that’s the way the discussion will go (i.e. I expect people to make this argument in the future) so I’m going to point out how ridiculous it is now.” In other words, it’s a gigantic fucking strawman. Thank you for confirming that. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/75 "2003-06-20T13:24:21Z")
In related news, a Gainsville, GA man is convicted of a hate crime for assaulting a Hispanic girl and her grandmother at a funeral: [http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/0603/20henhate.html](http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/0603/20henhate.html) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/76 "2003-06-20T14:00:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Orbifold \* > \*\*“No one’s actually made this argument, but I think that’s the way the discussion will go (i.e. I expect people to make this argument in the future) so I’m going to point out how ridiculous it is now.” > > In other words, it’s a gigantic fucking strawman. Thank you for confirming that. \*\* Actually, it is because this is how I think the discussion is trending, which is what I said. As far as I can tell, a hate crime is one that is motivated by hatred of gays (in this instance). Price did not display any evidence of such hatred before he committed the crime, and continued with the crime after he knew or should have known that his victim was not gay. Therefore it seems to me that homophobia was not a major motivator in the crime. Price did not seek out Love because he thought Love was gay. He sought him out because Love peeked at him in the shower. So a) I don’t think this was a hate crime, and b) I don’t think it matters if this was a hate crime or not. The guy belongs in prison, and the sentence for beating someone with a baseball bat should be the same whether you thought your victim was gay or because he called your mama names. As I have said, I don’t see what labelling this a “hate crime” adds. Is this worse because all the GLBTs on campus are forced to live in an atmosphere of fear? I don’t see why they would be any more or less afraid than of any other violent, unstable nutcase. I would say that _everyone_, gay or straight, should be afraid of a freak like this. Look at the triviality it takes to set him off! Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/77 "2003-06-20T16:24:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > > You are correct in stating that no one has come right out and said that this is a hate crime because the victim was perceived as gay. I’ll state it - this is a hate crime because the victim was perceived as gay. I disagree with your logic regarding whether or not it actually was. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/78 "2003-06-20T16:57:39Z")
If I was that afraid of being sexually assaulted by a man in the shower, I think I’d try to avoid committing crimes that landed me in prison with other violent felons. I’m just sayin’. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/79 "2003-06-20T20:07:28Z")
I’m thinking the jury was instructed to sentence according to how the law defines hate crimes. The law’s definition and your definition may differ. The law tends to split hairs more. The batter’s assault was not a premeditated attack. He didn’t plan the assault. He did it in a fit of rage. That’s how the law differentiates first and second degree murder. Prior to this, the batter didn’t have a history of criminal hatred for gays. He wasn’t a member of an anti-gay organization. Furthermore, what if his motivations were different…what if he had atttacked the guy because he said something about his mother for example, or did or said something not of a sexual or sexually preferential nature? Does that make the nature of the crime any better or worse? How can making it a hate crime make it worse than the despicable act it already was? A battered heterosexual feels just as much pain as a battered homosexual. He got 10 years for assault. Manslaughter sentences are typically shorter. I would think he got the maximum sentence for assault. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310/80 "2003-06-20T20:36:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\*I’ll state it - this is a hate crime because the victim was perceived as gay. > > I disagree with your logic regarding whether or not it actually was. > > Esprix \*\* Fair enough. Would you agree that _any_ crime in which the victim is gay (or perceived to be so) is a hate crime? I mentioned the earlier theoretical about the gay person beating up his lover because he suspected him of being unfaithful. This would be a case where the victim was gay, the circumstances that led to the crime would not have taken place unless the victim was gay, but the crime was not motivated by homophobia. Or we can just agree to disagree. As I have said, I don’t see how it would, or should, have made a difference in this case. Price is in prison, where he richly deserves to be. Nobody, gay or straight, deserves to be beaten with a baseball bat for mistakenly peeking into an occupied shower, and the weekend is almost here. Have a great one. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-not-a-hate-crime/182310.md?page=5)