# How is this possible? (Mother shot by toddler at Walmart) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 30, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569 "2014-12-30T21:49:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/41 "2014-12-31T03:26:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m with **pulykamell** here. The event was both. It was a case of serious (lethal) negligence…and an accident, just as any household spill. If I set my coffee down on the very edge of the table, and knock it over, I was negligent…but the event was an accident. > > The idea that negligence causes an event to be non-accidental is, in my opinion, bad linguistics. (I hate debates that involve appeals to dictionary descriptions of words, but, hey, seriously: [the word has a meaning](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accident).) > > (I think this may be the first time in my entire SDMB history that I’ve cited a dictionary. Sigh. I feel so…dirty.) Yeah it was an accident… And it falls within the definition of the term… But I think rather than linguistics we should be looking towards culture for an answer. To say that the shooting was an “accident” (IMHO) lessons the culpability of the mother. To label it negligence fully puts the blame where it belongs. In such cases, an accident should be something that is not really foreseeable - or something that you don’t really expect to happen. In this case - having a child digging into mummy’s bag is something relatively likely to happen, so it shouldn’t really thought to be an “accident”. Furthermore, we would normally take precautions against an accident (slow down for curves, wear a seatbelt, fence the pool) - what precautions were present in this case? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/42 "2014-12-31T03:45:28Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > - what precautions were present in this case? She had previously scolded her 2 year old for rummaging in her purse? probably claimed 'bad things happen when you don’t listen to mommy"… ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/43 "2014-12-31T04:56:50Z")
Recalled once-controversial lyrics by Sheryl Crow: Watch out sister, watch out brother Watch our children while they kill each other With a gun they got at Wal-Mart discount stores ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/44 "2014-12-31T05:04:30Z")
> [@simster](#): > > 'bad things happen when you don’t listen to mommy"… Are you threatening me mommy? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/45 "2014-12-31T05:24:22Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > She got a gun to feel safe and now she’s dead, if only there was some kind of lesson to learn from this. I know, right? She can’t even laugh at the irony of it all. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/46 "2014-12-31T05:24:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What kind of gun was it? 😕 I’ll be curious to see that as well. I’m betting semi; revolvers just don’t go off all that easy unless you are packing it cocked or some freak circumstance cocks it. > [@Yllaria](#): > > It’s also totally legal to buy or sell a gun at a yard sale or flea market, unless Hayden, Idaho had a local ordinance against it. Idaho at least used to have some sort of state license to buy and/or sale; at least back in the late 70s. I know; I got one to complete the private sale of a shotgun from a relative while I was visiting there. > [@seal\_cleaner](#): > > Ok, she had a concealed carry permit. What does that mean? She can leave her weapon unattended in a purse, or her car? It doesn’t need to be actually on her person? Not sure about Idaho today but for the most part a CCW would allow a purse and could - depending on the state and other specifics a car. “Unattended” again can vary greatly and you would need to check a lot of specifics to really get a feel. (A common thing in PA is for a woman who “carries” in her purse to get to work, lock (or simply place) the purse in a desk drawer, go about her days employment and remove it to go home. The gun is loaded and ready to go all day. Locked in a drawer is it under her control? Technically yes based on the couple cases I know. Is it wise? Not really) ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/47 "2014-12-31T06:07:53Z")
That poor kid. I doubt there is any way for him to grow up without knowing what happened. Who knows her story? Perhaps she lived with a realistic fear of a violent former spouse. Maybe she made a stupid mistake with her gun. Maybe she was just an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/48 "2014-12-31T06:59:26Z")
I guess I am one of the few here who had a stereotyped view of the victim as probably a lower-middle class redneck type person–unlike the rest of you. Instead: > [@](#): > > …The woman was identified as 29-year-old Veronica Rutledge, from Blackfoot, ID…Tuesday evening we learned more information about Veronica Rutledge. We’re told she has a degree in chemical engineering and works as scientist at the Idaho National Laboratory, which is just west of Blackfoot, ID. > **[UPDATE: Community, family in shock after 2-year-old accidentally shoots and...](https://www.khq.com/news/update-community-family-in-shock-after-2-year-old-accidentally-shoots-and-kills-his-mother/article_3d8648de-0e7a-5416-9c5e-3c430bd9520f.html)** > > The Kootenai County Sheriff's Office identified the woman who was accidentally shot and killed by her two-year-old son Tuesday morning at the Walmart in Hayden, Idaho. After looking at surveillance ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/49 "2014-12-31T07:37:49Z")
She got her degree before she started working at INL, who can guess how the radiation might have affected her since. Or maybe her son became some kind of advanced mutant because of her working there while carrying him. Be careful with that uranium, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/50 "2014-12-31T08:04:43Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Yeah it was an accident… > > And it falls within the definition of the term… > > But I think rather than linguistics we should be looking towards culture for an answer. > > To say that the shooting was an “accident” (IMHO) lessons the culpability of the mother. To label it negligence fully puts the blame where it belongs. Maybe it’s my own weapons training speaking, but to me, “accident” and “negligence” are synonymous as far as firearms are concerned. There is no such thing as an accidental discharge that wasn’t caused as a result of negligence. Guns don’t just “go off”; if they do, it’s because someone screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/51 "2014-12-31T08:42:44Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > Once again the media misreports a negligent discharge as an accidental one. This was not an accident, it was an act of negligence. In an effort to clarify, is it your contention that the word “accident” can never be legitimately used when speaking of any event in which the unintended discharge of a firearm occurs? ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/52 "2014-12-31T14:25:24Z")
Yep, a discharge is either intentional or negligent. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/53 "2014-12-31T14:58:37Z")
[A bit more detail](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/31/the-inside-story-of-how-an-idaho-toddler-shot-his-mom-at-wal-mart/): > [@](#): > > Veronica Rutledge and her husband loved everything about guns. They practiced at shooting ranges. They hunted. And both of them, relatives and friends say, had permits to carry concealed firearms. Veronica typically left her Blackfoot, Idaho, home with her gun nestled at her side. So on Christmas morning last week, her husband gave her a present he hoped would make her life more comfortable: a purse with a special pocket for a concealed weapon. > > The day after Christmas, she took her new gift with her on a trip with her husband and her 2-year-old son. They headed hundreds of miles north to the end of a country road where Terry Rutledge, her husband’s father, lived. The father-in-law learned of the new purse. > > “It was designed for that purpose — to carry a concealed firearm,” Rutledge told The Washington Post late Tuesday night. “And you had to unzip a compartment to find the handgun. > > On Tuesday morning, that was exactly what Veronica Rutledge’s son did — with the most tragic of outcomes … > > … The path Veronica Rutledge charted before her death, friends and family say, was one of academics and small-town, country living. “Hunting, being outdoors and being with her son” was what made her happiest, her friend Rhonda Ellis told The Post. She was raised in northeast Idaho and always excelled at school, former high school classmate Kathleen Phelps said, recalling her as “extremely smart. … valedictorian of our class, very motivated and the smartest person I know. … Getting good grades was always very important to her.” … > > … “They carried one every day of their lives, and they shot extensively,” Rutledge said. “They loved it. Odd as it may sound, we are gun people.” > > A lot of people in Idaho are. Earlier this year, the state legislature passed a bill that allows people to carry concealed guns onto state university campuses. And more than 85,000 people — 7 percent of the population — are licensed to carry concealed weapons, according to the Crime Prevention Research Center. … “In Idaho, we don’t have to worry about a lot of crime and things like that,” she said. “And to see someone with a gun isn’t bizarre. [Veronica] wasn’t carrying a gun because she felt unsafe. She was carrying a gun because she was raised around guns. This was just a horrible accident.” Maybe a purse with a gun compartment that just zippers just is not secure enough for concealed carry, or should never be put down while it contains the weapon. Certainly a gun should not be loaded and ready to fire where someone other than the intended user, in particular a child, has any ability to access it. I suspect these purses designed for concealed carry with a zipper closed pouch will soon be off the market. But I do agree with the father-in-law in this case - grandstanding over one tragic event out of what has been estimated as over 11 million concealed carry permitted individuals in this country seems wrong. The negligence in this case (that resulted in her accidental death) may be product design than the woman’s. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/54 "2014-12-31T15:00:14Z")
It’s hard for me to imagine that leaving a loaded gun where a toddler can reach it isn’t considered child neglect or abuse. Indeed, in my state, I’ve had to report a similar situation that was less egregious than this appears to be. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/55 "2014-12-31T15:11:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Maybe a purse with a gun compartment that just zippers just is not secure enough for concealed carry, or should never be put down while it contains the weapon. Certainly a gun should not be loaded and ready to fire where someone other than the intended user, in particular a child, has any ability to access it. I suspect these purses designed for concealed carry with a zipper closed pouch will soon be off the market. Nope, never. Fact is, it’s safer to have a purse with a dedicated holder for a weapon than a purse with a gun floating around loose among the lipsticks, facial tissues, and Og know what else might be in there. Of course, it’s even safer to leave your gun at home. I’m wondering if, in the past, she was used to having the gun in some sort of holster rather than in her purse, so in the past a toddler digging around in the purse wasn’t such a hazard. She recently acquired this purse, maybe she only recently started carrying her gun in her purse, and _forgot_ (because that can happen to human beings), placing her purse next to her son in the shopping cart seat. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/56 "2014-12-31T15:18:20Z")
> [@](#): > > [Veronica] wasn’t carrying a gun because she felt unsafe. She was carrying a gun because she was raised around guns. What an asinine sentiment. You don’t carry a loaded gun as a hobby. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/57 "2014-12-31T15:29:09Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I’m going to beat you there… > > only if he isn’t white… Me first… Kinda puts a new spin on “Clean-up on aisle 7”, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/58 "2014-12-31T15:32:43Z")
[The Well Armed Woman.](http://thewellarmedwoman.com/index.php?_route_=the-concealed-carry-purse) > [@](#): > > Making The Decision To Use A Concealed Carry Purse > > When choosing to carry in a concealed carry purse, here are some questions you might ask yourself in making this decision: > > ``` > Am I forgetful? > Have I left my purse behind in the last 6 months, in the restroom, a restaurant or store? > > ``` > > \*\* Am I around small children regularly who might have access to my purse?\*\* > Am I willing to carry my purse cross-body to minimize risk of someone taking my purse? > Can I keep it on me and store it properly when it must be off my body? > Will I vow to always have my gun in a holster in a designated compartment of the purse? > Am I disciplined enough to practice the awkward draw and use of my gun from the concealed carry purse? (yes, you may very likely need to shoot through the purse to not loose the precious seconds) ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/59 "2014-12-31T15:33:39Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Just the other day, some lady we knew died in a Walmart due to falling prices. …Clean up, aisle five… > [@Bill\_Door](#): > > Once again the media misreports a negligent discharge as an accidental one. This was not an accident, it was an act of negligence. There were some reports that some neighbors had seen them arguing over bedtime… > [@monstro](#): > > Just got an image in my head of a Walmart security guard shooting the next two-year-old who reaches into his momma’s purse. > > I’m SO going to hell. …well, its not like Grand Theft Auto is going to pay you when they steal that idea & use it in their next game. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > The reports say she had a CCW permit but if so she was being reckless with it If it helps, she won’t be using it _ever again_. > [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > It’s in the town of Hayden, capital of the craziest right wing militia groups in the country. Well, obviously somebody taught that kid to shoot. > [@Lobohan](#): > > So, is the Griffin family vacationing in Idaho? Well, not anymore. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/60 "2014-12-31T15:43:18Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > Yep, a discharge is either intentional or negligent. Under that strict definition couldn’t any accident be deemed negligent? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569.md?page=4)