# How is this possible? (Mother shot by toddler at Walmart) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 30, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569 "2014-12-30T21:49:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/101 "2014-12-31T19:24:05Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > The WaPo story linked in post #53 says definitively that the gun was stashed in a zippered pouch inside the purse, the child had to open the pouch, take the gun out and shoot. He shot her in the head, which sounds like miles from “an accident”. > > That story says that the family were gun enthusiasts. So, I can easily imagine that the 2-y/o had been exposed to, \*\*saturated with gun culture \*\*from the moment they snipped his umbilical cord. He knew the gun was there. He knew how to use it. Just, no one had told him “no backsies”. If this was true, he would have double-tapped to center mass. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/102 "2014-12-31T19:25:25Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Ahhh, so you’re one of _them_. :rolleyes: > > So if I’m eating ice cream with my kids at the local mall, and you happen see the 9 mm holstered on my hip, you will call the police? You will do this even though this is Ohio, where there are no laws that forbid OC? :dubious: > > Just to let you know, my LEO buddies _ **really really** _ despise people who call 911 to report a MWAG who is otherwise being lawful & peaceful. I don’t care what their personal character flaws are. If they don’t want to investigate a report of gun being carried in a store, that is their prerogative. But it certainly isn’t against the law for me to report it when you carry a gun in public. See something, say something. And if you have to interact with the cops every time you open carry, well that’s just gravy. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/103 "2014-12-31T19:26:26Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Actually, you are far safer if everyone around you is armed, since if a crazed killer next to you suddenly whips out a gun or knife everyone can react with the speed of lightning and blaze away in the general direction of the threat. So I should avoid standing anywhere in the general direction of crazed killers? Or two-year-olds? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/104 "2014-12-31T19:36:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But it certainly isn’t against the law for me to report it when you carry a gun in public. Actually, bogus 911 calls _are_ a crime. Not to mention, if the police have to come out to assuage your personal phobia, that means other, real crimes arent being solved or prevented. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/105 "2014-12-31T19:58:03Z")
I was surprised to learn that the mother was a nuclear research scientist at Idaho National Laboratory. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/106 "2014-12-31T20:01:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually, bogus 911 calls _are_ a crime. It’s not bogus if he actually sees a gun. It is, however, generally a waste of time. It’s a bit like calling 911 to report that someone on the road is staying perfectly in their lane, because you wonder whether they actually have a driver’s license or not. There was [an incident a few years ago in Madison, Wisconsin](http://www.isthmus.com/daily/article.php?article=35497) where a woman called 911 to report seeing men carrying guns in a restaurant. Cops showed up, asked for ID. Gun-toting gentlemen refused to provide it (within their rights), and were charged with obstructing justice, and then disorderly conduct. Charges were ultimately dismissed, but a lawsuit was filed; City of Madison settled for $10,000. So, thank the woman for getting the ball rolling, and thank the cops for overstepping their authority. I’m inclined the split the difference. If I see a guy carrying a gun in a holster of some sort, I’ll give him a pass - but f I spot some schmuck with a gun tucked in the front or back of his pants (see [Plaxico Burress](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaxico_Burress#Accidental_shooting)), I’m likely to call 911. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/107 "2014-12-31T20:02:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually, bogus 911 calls _are_ a crime. Not to mention, if the police have to come out to assuage your personal phobia, that means other, real crimes arent being solved or prevented. But we ARE encouraged to report suspicious behavior. What one person thinks in an innocent open carry, another may interpret as a maniac about to go on a shooting rampage at Wal-Mart. The difference between the two scenarios may be a look, a way of walking, of holding yourself that makes you think one guy is there to blow his former boss away and the other is there with a gun just in case someone goes on a shooting rampage in WalMart. Unfortunately one of the criteria we use to decide the difference is things like racial stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/108 "2014-12-31T20:15:41Z")
[Quote] You do not have - and cannot have - a right to “complete and absolute safety.” Life is full of risks and dangers.[Unquote] I’m not expecting “complete and absolute safety.” But if there’s a guy who wants to juggle chainsaws in a crowd, and the laws permit it, I want to avoid being anywhere near him. And if there’s an entire culture of guys who want to juggle their chainsaws wherever they please, it’s crazy. I know how stupid some people are. Not even always stupid…people get busy, distracted, attention spans vary. I’d prefer people keep their gun hobby limited to their home and the firing range. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/109 "2014-12-31T20:20:27Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > I was surprised to learn that the mother was a nuclear research scientist at Idaho National Laboratory. Here’s a link to some of her research: [http://www.inl.gov/technicalpublications/Documents/5588158.pdf](http://www.inl.gov/technicalpublications/Documents/5588158.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/110 "2014-12-31T20:22:33Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > So I should avoid standing anywhere in the general direction of crazed killers? Or two-year-olds? I generally do. Both. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/111 "2014-12-31T20:25:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually, bogus 911 calls _are_ a crime. It is not a crime to report a man with a gun to 911. It is not bogus because there is a man, and he has a gun. It is not my duty to determine if a crime is being committed, that is the job of law enforcement. They get hundreds of calls a day that turn out to be legal activity; that does not mean the person making the call has committed a crime. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/112 "2014-12-31T20:29:11Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > The WaPo story linked in post #53 says definitively that the gun was stashed in a zippered pouch inside the purse, the child had to open the pouch, take the gun out and shoot. … No need to take out of purse and in fact those who conceal carry in a purse advised to practice shooting without taking the gun out of the purse. All the kid needed to do was unzip the pouch reach in get fingers around the trigger and yank hard. Poor kid. Poor husband. I stand by my take. A purse intended to promote conceal carry in it is by its nature more likely to be associated with negligence than say a hip holster. I am not a gun owner or a fan. But one tragedy out of 11 million plus permitted to conceal carry, is not a major item at a societal level. It is actually a pretty good record. Purse concealed carry though? Seems like a bad idea which makes inadequate control of the weapon more likely to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/113 "2014-12-31T20:51:01Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Purse concealed carry though? Seems like a bad idea which makes inadequate control of the weapon more likely to happen. In this instance I completely agree–she’s got four kids with her, she’s distracted by shopping, she doesn’t have her full attention on the gun at a time when another person has access to her purse. For most other women looking to concealed carry, however, this gun might well be ideal, as women’s clothing does not lend itself to concealing handguns, and women who are out on their own with no kids would have no problem controlling the handgun. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/114 "2014-12-31T21:03:17Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > There are advantages and disadvantages to CC and OC. > > I do both, though I would estimate I OC 80% of the time. > > The best policy is to allow a citizen to freely choose to CC or OC. Okay, but I’m not clear on why you’d want to hide your gun. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/115 "2014-12-31T21:04:44Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > No need to take out of purse and in fact those who conceal carry in a purse advised to practice shooting without taking the gun out of the purse. All the kid needed to do was unzip the pouch reach in get fingers around the trigger and yank hard. > > Poor kid. Poor husband. > > I stand by my take. A purse intended to promote conceal carry in it is by its nature more likely to be associated with negligence than say a hip holster. > > I am not a gun owner or a fan. But one tragedy out of 11 million plus permitted to conceal carry, is not a major item at a societal level. It is actually a pretty good record. Purse concealed carry though? Seems like a bad idea which makes inadequate control of the weapon more likely to happen. As a purse owner and mother of now teens who were formerly toddlers, purses are all sorts of bad news. Kids that age see their mother as an extension of themselves, and their mother’s purse as a further extension. All sorts of cool things come out of that purse, from baggies of cheerios to your binkie. Zippers, to clever two year old hands, are no impediment to getting into a purse. Mine was a container of some OTC medication whose childproof cap had worn out from years in my purse. One panicked call to poison control and “yeah, they’ll sleep that one off” and my fears were taken care of - but anything in a purse with a toddler only takes a minute to cause problems. And yes, it was an accident, but I was negligent as well - had I gone through my purse regularly (what mother of toddlers has time?) I’d probably have realized that pill bottle was no longer childproof and tossed the whole thing. And my purse should have been out of reach (in the future it was). Had anything happened I’d have certainly blamed myself. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/116 "2014-12-31T22:28:34Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > The WaPo story linked in post #53 says definitively that the gun was stashed in a zippered pouch inside the purse, the child had to open the pouch, take the gun out and shoot. He shot her in the head, which sounds like miles from “an accident”… This part, “the gun was stashed in a zippered pouch inside the purse,” doesn’t mean that this part, “the child had to open the pouch, take the gun out and shoot,” follows. My guess is that either the pouch was already unzipped, allowing the tyke to reach in and squeeze the trigger, or that the toddler squeezed the trigger through the side of the pouch. I think **running coach** upthread mentioned in a quote that a holster was to be used within the purse, and that is good advice, IMHO, if one must carry a handgun within a purse. I will at times carry one of my pistols in a coat or pants pocket. It sits within a holster—I like the ones from Remora—which sits in the pocket. This possibility—that the trigger and safeties could be pulled, while the pistol is holstered or within a pouch—is something I check for on every new holster I purchase. I’ve rejected a few in the store, because I thought they were insufficiently stiff to prevent me from manipulating the trigger from the outside of the holster. What a senseless tragedy. Edit: **levdrakon** , one reason is that it is nobody’s business whether I am armed or not, if I am in a place where the property owner does not care if I am armed. A second reason is to avoid upsetting people like **Fear Itself** , and thereby avoid a meeting with law enforcement summoned by those people. Another is that Texas does not legally permit open carry of pistols. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/117 "2014-12-31T23:02:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually, bogus 911 calls _are_ a crime. Not to mention, if the police have to come out to assuage your personal phobia, that means other, real crimes arent being solved or prevented. He didn’t say he called 911. He said he called the police. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/118 "2014-12-31T23:09:40Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Okay, but I’m not clear on why you’d want to hide your gun. Different situations & circumstances demand different strategies. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/119 "2014-12-31T23:37:38Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Ahhh, so you’re one of _them_. :rolleyes: > > So if I’m eating ice cream with my kids at the local mall, and you happen see the 9 mm holstered on my hip, you will call the police? You will do this even though this is Ohio, where there are no laws that forbid OC? :dubious: > > Just to let you know, my LEO buddies _ **really really** _ despise people who call 911 to report a MWAG who is otherwise being lawful & peaceful. That open carry law didn’t stop the Cleveland police from killing that 12 year old with a toy gun, did it? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569/120 "2014-12-31T23:47:46Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > In an effort to clarify, is it your contention that the word “accident” can never be legitimately used when speaking of any event in which the unintended discharge of a firearm occurs? > [@Bill\_Door](#): > > Yep, a discharge is either intentional or negligent. Thank you for your candor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-possible-mother-shot-by-toddler-at-walmart/708569.md?page=7)