# How Is This So Different From Suicide Bombers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090 "2006-01-29T17:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/1 "2006-01-29T17:11:21Z")
This morning’s (29 Jan) _Lost Angeles Times_ has this article on the CIA’s [assination by drone](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-predator29jan29,0,5819230.story?coll=la-home-headlines) program. This is the program that carried out the drone attack in Pakistan to attempt to get a high Al Qaeda mucky-muck. Our side claims at least a partial success because of a supposed four terrorist leaders killed. It is unfortunate that something like 18 others had to be killed too. A suicide bomber, in order to further a cause by killing Iraqi police or US troops, blows them up and at the same time kills 30 or 40 bystanders. I agree that there could be a distinction between the two cases but the line is getting dimmer with each notch that our side ratchets up the violence. > [@](#): > > Lee Strickland, a former CIA counsel who retired in 2004 from the agency’s Senior Intelligence Service, confirmed that the Predator program had grown to keep pace with the spread of Al Qaeda commanders. The CIA believes they are branching out to gain recruits, financing and influence. > > … > > “It’s clear that the U.S. is prepared to use and deploy these weapons in a fairly wide theater,” he said. > > Current and former intelligence officials said they could not disclose which countries could be subject to Predator strikes. But the presence of Al Qaeda or its affiliates has been documented in dozens of nations, including Somalia, Morocco and Indonesia. > > High-ranking U.S. and allied counter-terrorism officials said the program’s expansion was not merely geographic. They said it had grown from targeting a small number of senior Al Qaeda commanders after the Sept. 11 attacks to a more loosely defined effort to kill possibly scores of suspected terrorists, depending on where they were found and what they were doing. > > “We have the plans in place to do them globally,” said a former counter-terrorism official who worked at the CIA and State Department, which coordinates such efforts with other governments. > > “In most cases, we need the approval of the host country to do them. However, there are a few countries where the president has decided that we can whack someone without the approval or knowledge of the host government.” ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/2 "2006-01-29T17:12:45Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > This morning’s (29 Jan) _Lost Angeles Times_ Make that _Los Angeles Times_ and no, dammit, that wasn’t a Freudian Slip. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/3 "2006-01-29T17:27:11Z")
The difference is that suicide bombing requires a little courage. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/4 "2006-01-29T17:38:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The difference is that suicide bombing requires a little courage. I just KNEW I could count on you for just this kind of comment. In these days of turmoil and confusion, it’s nice to have something you can rely on. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/5 "2006-01-29T17:42:13Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The difference is that suicide bombing requires a little courage. Restaraunts, markets, schools, ah yes, takes a real man to approach those apparently unarmed. Or a deluded zealot who believes his actions will be handsomely rewarded in heaven, making it one of the most selfish acts one could commit. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/6 "2006-01-29T17:43:23Z")
Do most suicide bombings really target military forces? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/7 "2006-01-29T17:47:48Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Restaraunts, markets, schools, ah yes, takes a real man to approach those apparently unarmed. > > Or a deluded zealot who believes his actions will be handsomely rewarded in heaven, making it one of the most selfish acts one could commit. So no one who thinks they’ll go to heaven is capable of genuine courage or sacrifice? We target civilians to, we just have the luxury of being able to do it with technology that eliminates the need for physical courage. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/8 "2006-01-29T17:57:19Z")
I think the major difference is intent. With these drones, there would (presumably) be an attempt to isolate the target from civilians and kill as few of the latter as possible. Obviously, the suicide bomber’s intent is to take out as many as possible; there really is no target other than the civilians. Not saying that makes it right, but there certainly is a difference. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/9 "2006-01-29T18:04:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The difference is that suicide bombing requires a little courage. I disagree. There is no courage required when the outcome you seek is obviously certain. Courage on the battlefield implies risk of losing or harming ones valued life. No risk in this case. Death is the objective. To answer the OP, I believe the difference is that the drone survives the attack and is capable of inflicting future damage. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/10 "2006-01-29T21:05:51Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > So no one who thinks they’ll go to heaven is capable of genuine courage or sacrifice? > > We target civilians to, we just have the luxury of being able to do it with technology that eliminates the need for physical courage. Cite? We target civilians, eh? Courage would be usung a gun. If you are close enough to kill the person(s) with a bomb strapped to your person, then an AK would kill just as well with fewer unintended victims. They want mass casualties. I need a cite that supports your absurd assumption that the military does too. BTW, I hope you enjoy being pigeonholed with the likes of **Der Trihs**. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/11 "2006-01-29T22:20:11Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > Do most suicide bombings really target military forces? I have the impression that their main objectives are Iraqi police and military recruits and the recruiting stations for them as well as US roadblocks. You don’t know what is in the mind of those who send the suicide bombers nor do I. It is possible that they think, as does the CIA apparently, yes, civilian innocents will be killed but it is important to us that this target, say a police station, be attacked. If they had the technology to use drones and missiles for the purpose they might use them instead of human missiles… I’m not an antiterrism or intelligence guru but this looks self defeating to me. The only way that we know where to aim the drone’s missile is through intelligence. By this sort of gunslinging we are likely to piss off more and more foreign governemts and lose whatever intelligence they provide and the capability of gathering it ourselves in country. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/12 "2006-01-29T23:04:32Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > I have the impression that their main objectives are Iraqi police and military recruits and the recruiting stations for them as well as US roadblocks. Some. And even then, is there any evidence that they try to minimize the injury of non-combatants? There are also a number of suicide bombers that specifically target civilians-- during funerals, religious services, etc. I don’t support the kind of bombing we carried out recently in an attempt to get al Zawahiri, but I wouldn’t equate that with suicide bombers either. In some instances a suicide bomber may target only military forces, but that is far from the general rule. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/13 "2006-01-29T23:11:15Z")
It’s a fine line, people on this forum don’t like fine lines because anytime a fine line may separate America on one side from “lots of bad stuff” on the other the Straight Dopes loves to err on the side most bad for America. Drone attacks are taking against what are seen as military targets, in the process of said attack, there may be collateral damage. The attack might hit the wrong target, too. There’s a difference, morally, between incidentally killing a civilian and intentionally killing a civilian. Incidental death is the great curse of wafare, intentional death is seen as a great moral wrong. Incidental death is something we strive to minimize, but the realities of what war is makes it impossible to eliminate them. Suicide bombings often have as their very target civilians, in Israel many suicide bombings have been done against purely civilian targets. Suicide bombings are designed to be extremely non-discriminatory, even if the civilians aren’t the main target, the explosives used means the bomber expects civilians to die and in fact considers them a “bonus” as they help decrease stability of the government he is fighting against. What about truly non-discriminatory explosives, ala strategic bombing in WWII? That may be somewhat similar in that there’s really no way to control who’s getting killed, you can target at industry but you know you’re going to kill tons of civilians. And often that was even the goal. But, WWII was a “total war” and one in which it was seen as militarily necessary to engage in total war. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/14 "2006-01-30T02:11:45Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Drone attacks are taking against what are seen as military targets, in the process of said attack, there may be collateral damage. The attack might hit the wrong target, too. There’s a difference, morally, between incidentally killing a civilian and intentionally killing a civilian. Incidental death is the great curse of wafare, intentional death is seen as a great moral wrong. Incidental death is something we strive to minimize, but the realities of what war is makes it impossible to eliminate them. I certainly agree that it’s a fine line. However, I’m not sure that attacks on a house in a town in Pakistan would be classified as one in which “there may be collateral damage.” It is in fact a virtual certainty and I have strong doubts that any steps were taken to minimize such “collateral damage.” > [@](#): > > Suicide bombings often have as their very target civilians, in Israel many suicide bombings have been done against purely civilian targets. Suicide bombings are designed to be extremely non-discriminatory, even if the civilians aren’t the main target, the explosives used means the bomber expects civilians to die and in fact considers them a “bonus” as they help decrease stability of the government he is fighting against. True, but sometimes they don’t and rather target police stations, police recruiting offices or training sites or the Iraq or US military. > [@](#): > > What about truly non-discriminatory explosives, ala strategic bombing in WWII? That may be somewhat similar in that there’s really no way to control who’s getting killed, you can target at industry but you know you’re going to kill tons of civilians. And often that was even the goal. But, WWII was a “total war” and one in which it was seen as militarily necessary to engage in total war. We’ve gone over this ground before. I myself have posted to the effect that the British night bombing, and later on the US daylight raids, had as their purpose the destruction of the German labor force rather than their factories. However, as you say, that was total war and Germany wasn’t an ally, as is Pakistan according to our own administration, or nominally neutral as are other countries mentioned in the _Times_ report, such as Yemen. And lastly, I somehow had hopes that our methods had advanced over those of 1943 by as much as has our technolgy in the intervening 60 or so years. I was under the impression that we were trying to establish a democracy in Iraq and by our actions impress upon the region’s leaders and population the superiority of our mode of operation to that of others. Suicide bombers tend to alienate the people and I think this sort of assassination by drone, with its spillover of “collateral damage,” is apt to do the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/15 "2006-01-30T02:20:25Z")
Courage is not a virtue, goddammit. What are we, savages who applaud the one with the bloodiest hands? Mercy is a virtue. Compassion is a virtue. A willingness to subsume one’s own needs for the needs of others is often a virtue. Respect for others of different opinions is a virtue. A willingness to risk one’s own life in order to kill others? At best, at very best, it’s a repulsive, horrific necessity sometimes. Who gives a shit if suicide bombers show courage? What sort of thug cares about such things? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/16 "2006-01-30T06:18:09Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > So no one who thinks they’ll go to heaven is capable of genuine courage or sacrifice? No plenty of people who believe they will go to heaven are very capable of genuine courage. Crashing a carload of explosives into a school bus is not a good example of it. If you feel that randomly blowing up busloads of kids is a good heroic idea, please avoid central California, I don’t want my kids riding a bus the day you decide to do something heroic. > [@](#): > > We target civilians to, we just have the luxury of being able to do it with technology that eliminates the need for physical courage. True many of these people are not part of any organized state army so in that way they are civillians. Being part of an organization with a habit of killing americans en masse does grant you honorary combatant status IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/17 "2006-01-30T10:01:43Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The difference is that suicide bombing requires a little courage. Not really, no. Not if you really believe the whole “be a martyr and go to paradise” bit. That’s why such nonsense is invented, so people will treat themselves as expendable. It doesn’t take courage to die if you think you aren’t _really_ going to die, but just go to a better place. It’s gullability and greed at work here, not bravery. The drone bit requires nothing but callousness, however. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > So no one who thinks they’ll go to heaven is capable of genuine courage or sacrifice? To the extent they really believe it, no. That’s the point - from a believer’s viewpoint, he isn’t sacrificing a thing; he’s gaining. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/18 "2006-01-30T10:21:03Z")
One aspect is the value that one side places on their own ‘fighters’ lives. Another is the so called rules of war, which by default a sucide bomber must violate (non-uniformed combatants = spies). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/19 "2006-01-30T10:55:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > One aspect is the value that one side places on their own ‘fighters’ lives. Neither side seems to care much, AFAIKT. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Another is the so called rules of war, which by default a sucide bomber must violate (non-uniformed combatants = spies). Irrelavant in a resistance against occupation, since only idiots would wear a uniform under such circumstances. Whether or not they are suicide bombers targeting civilians, or a gunman targeting a soldier. ---
**Author:** ![booklyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@booklyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/booklyn)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090/20 "2006-01-30T14:20:39Z")
This thread reminds of the scene in the Battle of Algiers when the captured “terrorist” leader is called out as a coward for using women to plant bombs in the French occupiers cafes- His reply " You give us your bombers (planes) we will give you ours and we will see who wins." I think one question here is of resources to answer a percieved threat. Bombing sucks either way. I like what LHOD said about compassion. “What’s so funney about peace, love and understanding?” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-this-so-different-from-suicide-bombers/342090.md?page=2)