How is this woman NOT legally responsible for this death?

I’ve said this already. I’ll say it again. MY PROBLEM IS NOT WITH THE DECISION SHE MADE. It’s with the idea that says she is not responsible for the consequences of her decision. If this had worked out fine and no one was injured or killed, I wouldn’t bring this up at all, as there would have been no bad consequences of her decision.
The only reason I brought up that she had time to make a decision was in response to that claptrap you posted about “when a plane fails, it goes straight down and goes KaBlam and the pilot doesn’t have time to do anything at all…” You made it sound like it was fate that put her on the road. I’m not saying that more time gave her more options. I’m saying she made a decision to land on the road instead of the on the shoulder or crash into the trees.

And minty:

That may be the law, and I might not be able to do anything about it, but I have serious problems with this as well.

I’ve been flying professionally for a while now, and I’ve done a few different types of flying work - and had more than my share of emergencies. The highest incidence of mechanical surprises happened while I was instructing. Since I was teaching, and later running the flight school at a maker of aircraft with a high incidence of mechanical failures, I got more experience in the “emergency mindset” than most pilots with similar number of hours as pilot-in-command. Since I’m a helicopter pilot, not a fixed-wing driver, you may not feel that my opinion is qualified. Up to you.

In my work as a pilot/reporter for a television and radio news station, I’ve seen the aftermath of some airplane surprises, and I’ve been impressed with the skill-under-stress shown by those pilots - generally because it’s probably their first unsimulated emergency.

And there’s a couple of factors here that haven’t been given the emphasis they deserve.

In the first place, Hilander10 said:

This is simply not true. FAA regulations grant the pilot-in-command the ability to disobey any ATC (traffic control) instruction to the extent necessary to meet the emergency.

YOU, as pilot, are expected, privileged, and required to use your best judgment in the situation. If Approach tells you to set down on the freeway, you can say “No, there’s people down there - I’m heading for the _____.” And they will not kick at all - provided you were right. Note: this doesn’t give you the right to blow them off for the rest of the day - just to the extent necessary to meet the emergency.

Next off, msmith537 points out that:

This is a bigger factor than most people realize. In the dark, you may hazard a guess about what those dark spots are, but you can’t know. When I’m flying cross-country at night, I add an extra thousand feet or so, just because of this.

She probably would have gone for the clearing - but she couldn’t see it. She couldn’t know it wasn’t strung solidly with wires. She didn’t like the freeway, but she COULD SEE IT.

I will guess about her decision to land “clean” (flaps and gear up). It reduced drag on the airplane, allowing her better control, because airfoils work better with more air. Personally, I’d question this decision, but not too hard, because of another factor that nobody’s mentioned:

She was flying bank paper. Why does that matter? Because bank-paper-flying is one of the scut-work jobs that only low-time pilots do, and then only long enough to move up the ladder to the better jobs. So the fact that she was flying checks tells me that she didn’t have much experience. With more experience she might have decided that she DIDN’T want all that speed when she got to the ground, and she DID want some wheels for directional control when she got there. Maybe she would have dumped flaps and throttled back - remember she was afraid she’d drop the engine.

This is a big thing to fear. You may not be aware of it, but a dropped engine is more than an inconvenience to the ground - it places your airplane WAY out-of-balance. It won’t fly that way. It has as much control as a dropped piece of paper.

So she was rattled, but she evaluated the options and chose the best one available. With more experience, maybe she’d have been going slower, and had some wheels out, when she got down. But I think she did pretty well.

Liability? The insurer of the company she was flying for will probably pay, but I don’t think any will stick to her - other than the nightmare of an NTSB investigation, and a fatal accident on her record.

zwaldd, you seem to be taking the position that if it’s not an “act of god”, then it must be negligence. But the legal definition of negligence is “the failure to exercise the standard of care that a reasonably prudent person would have exercised in the same situation” (Black’s Law Dictionary). It is quite possible for an airline to accidentally allow a terrorist bomb onto an airplane without being negligent. Similarly, mechanical failures can and do happen all the time without anyone being negligent.* The standard is that of a reasonably prudent person, and reasonably prudent people sometimes screw up without being negligent.

*Note that I am not talking about mechanical failures caused by the manufacturer of a product. Under American law, products liability is a system of strict liability, in which no negligence need be proven.

Ravendriver, what do you think the odds are that her failure to turn off the fuel switch before landing (wheels up) resulted in the explosion?

read the post again. i stated that the insurance company could either pay up, or prove that the accident was caused by something completely out of the company’s hands. ‘act of god’ was one example.

ok, the debate about what constitutes general liability is off the op, so i’m going to drop it after this: i know it’s possible; that’s why i took the extra bandwidth to specify in my example that an investigation showed negligence: “if an investigation reveals that the bomb was able to be loaded onto the plane because the airline did not follow required security procedures…”

as far as the op is concerned, i agree with ravendriver’s assessment.

This really is a WAG, but here goes: When the POH (pilot’s operating handbook) tells you to do certain things, some of these things are necessary to make it possible to live through the experience, others are to cover all bases and reduce risk by any amount greater than zero.

Landing wheels up is going to make a lot of sparks, and the tanks on her Piper PA-32R-300 are in the wing - on the underside. So she’s basically sliding along on her gas tank, while the skin is ground through. Eventually one of two things will happen: it will stop sliding, or it will dump her remaining fuel onto a spark generator.

Switching off the fuel will prevent any more fuel to the engine, but won’t fix the problem detailed above. So I wouldn’t say her failure to switch off the fuel did not contribute as much to the danger of an explosion as her decision to land wheels up.

Sorry, that should say I would say her failure to switch off…

Sorry.

**

Why would you bring this up if nobody had died? If she had made a successful landing you should be screaming for her to be charged with reckless endangerment or something. After all she put other people at risk.

**

I think everyone here agrees that she made the decision to land on the road instead of death on the trees. We just don’t think it was a bad decision.
Marc

Amazing use of sarcasm, Marc. Believe it or not, I do recognize that the law says that people are allowed to act in extreme measures when their life is in danger. And that’s fine. However, I do not agree that it should be extend to actions that leave innocent people dead.

The dead person’s survivors should (and undoubtedly will) sue everyone possible, and let the courts sort it out.

She thought she might “lose the engine.” Well, what if she was incorrect in her assumption? How did she perform this emergency landing? What is her health history? What was her condition on that day? Did she do or ignore anything at any point that worsened the situation?

Man, there are endless possibilities. What is the source for the info in the link? An individual’s self report following an accident can be quite different from what comes out following discovery.

If a plane drops out of the sky, lands on a road, and kills one of my family members in a car, you’d better believe I’ll try to nail SOMEONE to the wall. The reason emotion is directed at the pilot is the same reason customers yell at a helpless store clerk who is simply enforcing a stupid company policy. The pilot is an identifiable person who was immediately related to the incident. To the extent this situation causes a person to sense anger, frustration, etc., there is an understandable tendency for some folk to direct those feelings at a specific individual, rather than a nebulous “coroporation(s).”

Whether or not the pilot, her employer, the maintenance company, the plane manufacturer, the ATC did anything wrong, for the extent of this discussion I believe we are assuming the dead driver was NOT doing anything wrong. And the fact situation is so wierd that it is very easy to be sympathetic to the poor schmuck that is just tooling along when a plane runs into his car.

I certainly think there is enough possibility for liability that the pilot should be named in the inevitable lawsuits. But this is what courts should do. Sure, shit happens. But if you are in charge while shit happens, and someone else is injured, I think it reasonable for you to have to establish why the shit was not caused or exacerbated by you.

I also believe our system of permitting air travel is NOT based upon an actuarial calculation of the collateral damages acceptable. Our legal system has deemed such economic cost/benefit analyses as unacceptable in product manufacturing (It will cost less to settle the anticipated deaths/injuries, than to incorporate modifications to prevent them). Rather, our air transport system reflects the assumption that in the overwhelming majority of cases, properly constructed, maintained, and operated aircraft DO NOT fall from the sky. When they do, it is VERY VERY likely that someone did something wrong to cause the accident.

BTW, Ms. Dinsdale came up with a handy mnemonic device for assessing the tort of negligence (actually works well for most if not all torts): Dumb Blondes Can’t Dance. To be liable there must be a Duty owed, Breach of that duty, Causation, and Damages. In this case, I guess it boils down to whether a pilot owes drivers a duty to not run into them while they are driving along a road… Maybe the Mazda driver is liable for failing to yield the right of way?

As to the legality of using a highway as a runway strip, I plead ignorance. But I keep getting a mental image of that sign at every entrance ramp prohibiting pedestrians, bicycles, minibikes, etc. Yeah, but you can land a plane on the road? Love it!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mouthbreather *

I’ve said this already. I’ll say it again. MY PROBLEM IS NOT WITH THE DECISION SHE MADE. It’s with the idea that says she is not responsible for the consequences of her decision. If this had worked out fine and no one was injured or killed, I wouldn’t bring this up at all, as there would have been no bad consequences of her decision.

[QUOTE]

Damn, you are thick headed…

I think the point has been made to you several times by several diferent people (including actual pilots) that you can’t hold the pilot criminally responsible because she did the only thing that the situation allowed. Who cares if someone was killed? It’s tragic, yes, but should she go to “pound me in the ass” prison for 5 years because some guy in a Mazda happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when her plane fell out of the sky? What possible good would come from punishing the pilot? To teach her a lesson so that she never crashes again?

If you don’t think she made the wrong decision, why should she be punished? What she had landed in a field and ran over some kid out playing kickball?

Give it a rest already! We understand your point of view is “someone was killed as a result of her decision so she should be criminally liable”. You just haven’t given us a single reason WHY other than “I think she should be criminally liable”.

Criminals are people who willfully commit acts that hurt other people or through negligence allow harm to come to others. That does not mean we are expected to control every molecule of every item we own or operate! Nobody has that power.

Quite frankly, I think this discussion has been resolved. You posted your opinion about the incident and most of us don’t agree with you. Unless you have any new insight to share with us, I will stand by my opinion that the pilot did the right thing and that the results, while tragic, were certainly not criminal.

Let me ask you one more thing. Do you remember an incident many years ago where a big passenger plane lost hydraulic power and crashed in Souix City some years ago? The pilot had no control over the rudder and had to turn by throttling the engines. The plane made it to the airport but crashed, although about half the people (including the pilot) survived. Most people view the pilot as a hero for managing to fly a crippled airplane several hundred miles to an airport and nearly land it without the luxury of a rudder or ailerons. I’m sure you would probably have liked to have him charged with the murder of 150 people because of his “decision”.

For starters, I’m not interested in turning this into a pissing contest. So keep your petty insults to yourself. I have not been insulting to you at all.

Her plane didn’t fall out of the sky. She landed it. If she had no control and it “fell out of the sky” onto a car, it would be a different story.

Because it very possible to make the same decision twice with different outcomes. Tough concept for you to grasp?

I’ll let that statement stand on it’s own. Try reading it again.

You can stand by whatever opinion you like. Also, if this has been resolved, I look forward to you not posting in this thread anymore.

Then you would be wrong. Nothing I have said so far implies that I would think that.

msmith - do you mind watching the insults?
I have a hard time getting my mind around the concept that a plane lands on a road, kills a motorist, and the pilot is so obviously without fault that to suggest otherwise denotes thick-headedness.

And I do not consider your Sioux City example analogous at all.

A lot of folk have been quite critical of mouthbreather on specific points of law, with little legal support provided outside of a statute from a state other than where this incident occurred.

IAAL, Dinsdale. I know of which I speak when it comes to basic (and much not-so-basic) tort law. If you would like a general cite, go down to your library and check out a copy of the unannotated Restatement (Second) of Torts.

I understand the point you make about disagreeing with the civil liability system, mouthbreather. Actually, I’m fairly sympathetic to no-fault compensation systems, at least when it comes to automobiles and airplanes. There are a couple of states that have adopted such systems, including Michigan and its no-fault auto insurance program. But it’s been shot down in a lot of other states, sometimes directly by the voters, who seem to prefer the fault-based system most states have.

zwaldd, I was responding to your statement above (which I read quite clearly and carefully, thank you very much) that “a mechanical failure isn’t an act of god.” As I stated above, mechanical failures can and do happen in the absence of human negligence. Blame it on god or bad luck, if you wish, but it happens.

Oops. Just to clarify, no state that I am aware of has no-fault compensation for airplane-related injuries. Just no-fault auto insurance, AFAIK. I was thinking of the Warsaw Convention, which is the international treaty governing flights between countries. If you’re on an international flight and that plane crashes, you (or your survivors) will be compensated regardless of anyone’s negligence. However, there are very low limits on the amount of money that the airline will have to pay you.

What portion of my posts are you referring to. Did I misstate something or disagree with your or anyone else’s unquestionable representation of some tort concepts?

You’re a lawyer. Good for you. I promise not to hold that against you. And, thanks for the recommendation that I check out the Restatement, but I presently have no need of a soporific.

If you don’t wish to contest the accuracy of my (or anybody else’s) statements of applicable law, then please don’t post statements such as this:

So are you saying we’re wrong, or are you just the type of person who want cites before accepting that the world is round?

Well shoot. You know that if we say that risky actions are ok in some circumstances we’re just going to have to accept the fact that some people are going to die from time to time. Was the pilot reckless? No. Therefore I don’t see anything wrong with her actions given the situation. We’ll just have to disagree.

Marc

Originally posted by mouthbreather:

You don’t seem to understand. When a plane loses power it essentially does just fall out of the sky. Yes they glide, but they are coming down, NOW!

She didn’t try to land on the roofs of cars, that would have been suicide. But trying to make an emergency landing on a roadway, even between traffic, is an acceptable procedure in the eyes of the law (the FAA). The risk to drivers is just not signifigant enough to make it unacceptable. As I said before, this case is the rare exception not the rule.

Wow. I’m surprised that is the portion of my post you took issue with.

The only statute I saw cited is from (I believe) Texas.
You toss in some Cal case you remember from law school, and toss around the terms “negligence” and “reasonally prudent person” as tho that explains everything. Even if certain legal concepts in that case may be similar to the case at hand, the facts are tremendously distinguishable, and common law on this and other issues does differ from state to state.

I tried to suggest some of what is required to prove negligence. Did I err?

I believe the assignment of liability in this case is a little more complex than you suggest. I believe we have certainly not been presented sufficient facts to determine who is liable and to what extent. Like I said, drop a plane on my wife, and I’ll sue you. You might escape liability. You might not. But I would be very surprised if a judge would summarily dismiss the pilot as a defendant.

You might disagree. Fine.

Have I done something to cause the snotty tone of your posts towards me?