# How is "wokeness" responsible for the loss of abortion rights? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2023, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084 "2023-02-20T14:39:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/61 "2023-02-20T20:23:26Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > “Woke” needs to be dropped altogether from the Dem platform. The term had its run and now it should be retired. Let’s agree on this, and agree that it also needs to be dropped from the lexicon of moderates who want an excuse to tear down those on their left. In fact, I hope you don’t mind my jumping the gun: I just waved my magic wand and removed every use of “Woke” from the Dem platform. [Check for yourself–it’s gone](https://cdn.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/2020-Democratic-Party-Platform.pdf)! ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/62 "2023-02-20T20:28:02Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Last year he taught a class on Lincoln (which he has taught many times over the years) and for the first time, almost every student was adamant that Lincoln was a racist who didn’t really care about slavery and doesn’t deserve to be respected as a great leader. They could not see past this very superficial characterization of him. Sounds like your husband has his work cut out for him. History is complicated. Students of history need to try to see some of the complexity. My professors at my small liberal arts college opened my eyes in many ways. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/63 "2023-02-20T20:29:10Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > And the reason that answer will not be convincing (to people like me) is that it negates the reality that people are seeing. > > My husband teaches at a small liberal arts college. In the span of his lengthy career he has seen a big change in how tolerant his students are towards any opinion that is even a half a standard deviation from their own central tendencies. Last year he taught a class on Lincoln (which he has taught many times over the years) and for the first time, almost every student was adamant that Lincoln was a racist who didn’t really care about slavery and doesn’t deserve to be respected as a great leader. They could not see past this very superficial characterization of him. The lone dissenter was a black student (which might be surprising to some but not to me) who could somehow appreciate the man as a product of his time but still pretty damn progressive and bold. What has that got to do with the Democratic Party? > [@YWTF](#): > > “Woke” needs to be dropped altogether from the Dem platform. Show me where that word is in the Democratic platform. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/64 "2023-02-20T20:35:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > His [Letter from a Birmingham Jail](https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html) is as close as I come to a gospel for my own activism, and I figure folks should read it at least annually. Consider what he might say about die-ins outside of Chappelle shows: Can you please not put words in MLK mouth, please? This is really a bad look. BTW, there were no die-in protests related to the Dave Chappelle show on college campuses. I made a throwaway comment about what college students _think_ and somehow your imagination has led you here: digging up MLK quotes so that you can convince us a black man who was assassinated for speech that angered privileged white people would, over 50 years later, attack another black man for speech that has angered privileged white people. And you see nothing weird about doing this at all. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/65 "2023-02-20T20:35:58Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > And the reason that answer will not be convincing (to people like me) is that it negates the reality that people are seeing. > > My husband teaches at a small liberal arts college. In the span of his lengthy career he has seen a big change in how tolerant his students are towards any opinion that is even a half a standard deviation from their own central tendencies. Last year he taught a class on Lincoln (which he has taught many times over the years) and for the first time, almost every student was adamant that Lincoln was a racist who didn’t really care about slavery and doesn’t deserve to be respected as a great leader. They could not see past this very superficial characterization of him. The lone dissenter was a black student (which might be surprising to some but not to me) who could somehow appreciate the man as a product of his time but still pretty damn progressive and bold. > > These students, who are the type to see themselves as woke in the most earnest sense of the word, don’t think they are simply embodying “don’t be a jerk”. And “don’t be a jerk” is certainly not the impression that people who interact them are getting either. It means something much more ideological than that. > > Gaslighting the public by telling them they don’t know what their own eyes and ears are telling them will fail. I’m just being honest here. “Woke” needs to be dropped altogether from the Dem platform. The term had its run and now it should be retired. > > A better tack will be for them to say this “There are those who mistakenly think progress comes from shouting at and judging people, but history tells us that approach is flawed, especially in polarized times. **What we need to do is connect on the issues that matter the most to people and work on where there are differences in the most effective ways possible**.” In other words, messaging that is not condescending or gaslightly. I’m not sure that would work. Not that it would fail as a political message, but that it has failed in reality for those that have tried it, and for the following reasons. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Swap “woke activists” for “NFL player actions” and the post fits perfectly in this thread. IMHO it’s not just that Colin Kaepernick, BLM, and such are currently in the middle of their struggles rather than someone like MLK who succeeded in the past. It’s that the current civil rights activists have a harder task because the earlier generation, in a certain sense, already picked the low hanging fruit. In other words, I think that back in MLKs day ignorance was a much bigger problem than it is today, and a lot (but certainly not all) of racism back then stemmed from ignorance. There were a lot of racists who were otherwise kind, decent people who could be convinced to stop being racist by the type of campaigns carried out by Rosa Parks and MLK. These days the people who are bigots, whether racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. are mostly bigots because they’re assholes. Educating someone who is ignorant is a lot easier than trying to change an asshole into a non-asshole, which is the challenge faced by today’s activists. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/66 "2023-02-20T20:43:26Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > It’s a term that means different things to different people. It’s a term that means 'I don’t have the nerve to say ‘uppity’ like I want to." ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/67 "2023-02-20T20:50:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Let’s agree on this, and agree that it also needs to be dropped from the lexicon of moderates who want an excuse to tear down those on their left. You missed the best part: > [@YWTF](#): > > Gaslighting the public by telling them they don’t know what their own eyes and ears are telling them will fail. I’m just being honest here. “Woke” needs to be dropped altogether from the Dem platform. The term had its run and now it should be retired. Yeah, “woke” is definitely used seriously all the time by liberals. I used to think it wasn’t, but now that my memory has been questioned, I’ve changed my mind. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/68 "2023-02-20T20:51:34Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > It’s a term that means 'I don’t have the nerve to say ‘uppity’ like I want to." Do you think the only people who use “woke” as a pejorative are racist white people? Is that the implication? Seems like that idea completely erases all the black people and other victims of racial discrimination from the conversation, as well as women (who also gets called uppity but you know, whatev), but maybe I’m misunderstanding you. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/69 "2023-02-20T20:54:06Z")
“Angered privileged white people”? Oh, you mean the folks that are having a shit fit over the word “woke”. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/70 "2023-02-20T20:57:38Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Do you think the only people who use “woke” as a pejorative are racist white people? Personally, I think the _only_ people who use “woke” as a word are using it as a pejorative. [except for a tiny few who use it to mean “aware of racial inequality”] It’s the same fight we had a few years ago about “Social Justice Warrior” which I thought sounded like a good thing, but I was taught here that it is a bad thing, and only used by people criticizing those who fight for social justice. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/71 "2023-02-20T20:57:45Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I’m not sure that would work. Not that it would fail as a political message, but that it has failed in reality for those that have tried it, and for the following reasons. Dems should stop trying to defend “woke”. That’s my point. Being a good person doesn’t need to be defended because it’s what we are all supposed to do and it has never needed a special hip term to set it apart. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/72 "2023-02-20T20:58:10Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > BTW, there were no die-in protests related to the Dave Chappelle show on college campuses. I made a throwaway comment about what college students _think_ and somehow your imagination has led you here: digging up MLK quotes so that you can convince us a black man who was assassinated for speech that angered privileged white people would, over 50 years later, attack another black man for speech that has angered privileged white people. I see I made a mistake in thinking you were discussing facts, rather than fantasies. I’ll not make that error again. For example, your implication that trans activists are “privileged white people” is jaw-droppingly unaware of [history](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/classroom/2022/06/black-trans-perspectives-and-the-anniversary-of-the-stonewall-riots/) and of [current events](https://www.thetaskforce.org/new-analysis-shows-startling-levels-of-discrimination-against-black-transgender-people/). Your willingness to act like King was a supporter of oppression, as long as it wasn’t specifically and solely pointed at Black people, is [similarly absurd](https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/poor-peoples-campaign). And your misuse of terms like “gaslighting” and quickness to imply racism on the part of others who don’t support the oppression you support? Yeah, not here for that. I feel pretty comfortable, in my reading of King, in understanding how he’d analyze current events. Unlike me, he likely would have questions your fantasy description of the die-ins, and I do apologize for that error. The last thing I’m going to do, though, is let someone who supports oppression gatekeep King. Edit: the civil rights leader who best carries on King’s legacy is, I believe, Rev. William S. Barber II. [He’s a staunch supporter of trans rights](https://www.christianpost.com/news/you-cant-understand-black-folks-without-understanding-lgbt-community-pastor-barber-says.html). It’s pretty interesting to read the National Organization for Marriage’s quotes in that article, and see how closely their “concern” for the Black community maps to “concern” over wokeness hurting the abortion rights movement. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/73 "2023-02-20T21:04:31Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I’m saying there is an epidemic of problematic “wokeness” among liberal adults that is keeping them from effectively engaging with the political system. 2-3 years ago, one could have argued that “woke” referred to a shallow, performative style of engagement that focused mainly on identity politics, and tends to suck the air out of anything actually oriented toward effective political action. I would have supported you. I think that’s still a piece of baggage that I’d like to see the left throw overboard. However, times change. The right-wing have succeeded in freezing “woke” into meaning “Black (in a pejorative sense)”. Why? because there’s not a huge amount of appetite on the left for another leftward-punching pejorative term, and you’re not going to be the one to make it stick. If you want to argue that the left at times seems like it’s influenced too heavily by the prototypical white college sophomore who just smoked her very first joint with her very first black friend, and thus feels entitled to police how you talk, then I’m right behind you on that. It’s not a popular position but it’s worth talking about. However, if you insist that what you’re describing is “woke”, you need to understand that this term is now mainly understood as a catch-all pejorative for Black, and nobody’s going to want to hear your explanation of “I’m not punching as hard left as it sounds like.” ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/74 "2023-02-20T21:09:31Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Personally, I think the _only_ people who use “woke” as a word are using it as a pejorative. [except for a tiny few who use it to mean “aware of racial inequality”] It’s the same fight we had a few years ago about “Social Justice Warrior” which I thought sounded like a good thing, but I was taught here that it is a bad thing, and only used by people criticizing those who fight for social justice. I agree that few people actually use “woke” in a non-pejorative sense in everyday speech. But there are people, even in this very thread, who define woke as a good thing. And then there are people like me who realize the meaning of “woke” depends on the concept a person is referring to. Some people think that _concept_ of problematic wokeness doesn’t exist and other people disagree. So I don’t really know what your position is on the above. Whether people use woke non-pejoratively does not get at the crux of the issue, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/75 "2023-02-20T21:11:00Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > However, if you insist that what you’re describing is “woke”, you need to understand that this term is now mainly understood as a catch-all pejorative for Black, and nobody’s going to want to hear your explanation of “I’m not punching as hard left as it sounds like.” I’m not sure that’s how it’s mainly understood, [although certainly it sometimes is used that way](https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/564859-the-nfls-decision-to-play-lift-every-voice-and-sing-is-a-false-start/). I believe @YWTF is using it to describe people who support trans rights (and I recognize that it’s difficult to talk about this, given the topic ban, but given the Chappelle shout-out I think the implication is clear). It’s used to talk about LGBT rights a lot, in addition to being used to talk about Black people. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/76 "2023-02-20T21:15:36Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Dems should stop trying to defend “woke”. That’s my point. Do you mean the word? I’d like to see some evidence that they are. Do you mean “Democrats should stop trying to defend the practice of calling attention to actual injustice”? Why do you think that injustice can be decreased if everybody ignores it whenever it happens? Or do you mean “Democrats should stop trying to reduce injustice”? Because no, I don’t think they should do that. I think Republicans should start doing it too; some of them used to, once upon a time. Or do you mean “Democrats should continue to try to lessen injustice, which does exist, but they should lie to the voters and say that they don’t think there is any”? I think that would be a bad idea, because a) I don’t think it’s possible to lessen injustice while ignoring its existence and b) they’d almost certainly lose a large percentage of the voters they are getting, and probably wouldn’t pull many away from the Republicans who are already saying that there isn’t any. Or do you mean “Democrats should stop trying to claim that things are injustice because I think that modern USA society is already entirely just”? I hesitate to come to that conclusion, but if that’s what you mean I think you should say so. Or do you mean that you think the Democrats are claiming as injustice only certain specific things that you think are just fine, and not also claiming as such anything that you think actually is just? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/77 "2023-02-20T21:47:17Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Can you please not put words in MLK mouth, please? This is really a bad look. But then just two sentences later you did the same thing… > [@YWTF](#): > > I made a throwaway comment about what college students _think_ and somehow your imagination has led you here ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/78 "2023-02-20T21:52:59Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Why do you think that injustice can be decreased if everybody ignores it whenever it happens? That’s what they thought about covid tests too. Also, didn’t we just have a thread, not that long ago, about someone claiming the GOP isn’t racist or racism isn’t that bad, it’s just the left constantly talking about it and if we would just stop… ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/79 "2023-02-20T21:53:14Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > However, if you insist that what you’re describing is “woke”, you need to understand that this term is now mainly understood as a catch-all pejorative for Black, and nobody’s going to want to hear your explanation of “I’m not punching as hard left as it sounds like.” I don’t really get what you mean by the last line, but maybe that’s okay. Perhaps it’s because I’m black and I see the “wokeness” shit having negative consequences on my demographic group (both from the right and the left) that explains my point of view in this discussion. Perhaps, just perhaps, I understand what is at stake if progressives keep leaning into more reactionary courses of action rather than actually being smarter. What is at stake are elections. More Trumpian politics. Policies that keep us from getting the things we still need like a healthcare system that isn’t pitiful and better schools. Black people suffer the most from shortcomings in these areas. Yes, I’m sure “woke” means “Black” in the eyes of right wingers. That’s exactly to be expected when a term coined by black people is co-opted by suburbanites hankering for activism without not knowing how to do it in a politically savvy way. And so yeah, folks like me are pissed that black people are now getting the reputational blowback from that. Yup we are. I shook my head when the BLM protests started turning into circuses precisely because I saw this particular writing on the wall. (Btw, I had no problem with Colin Capernack’s protests because kneeling is not disruptive or chaotic and it didn’t cost anyone their dignity or property. It may be “woke” but it’s a different animal than what BLM let itself become.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084/80 "2023-02-20T21:58:52Z")
ISTM BLM was instrumental to whatever progress we’ve made in the last few years – without BLM, George Floyd’s killer wouldn’t have been prosecuted, nor would Tyre’s killers, nor would many other violent cops. There’s still plenty of progress left that needs to be made, but there have been real changes in the last few years, thanks to BLM. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-wokeness-responsible-for-the-loss-of-abortion-rights/980084.md?page=5)