# How large a file is a 128 kbps MP3 of John Cage's 4'33"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 22, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631 "2004-06-22T14:45:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jake4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bc8723/32.png) [@Jake4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake4)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/1 "2004-06-22T14:45:17Z")
You know, that’s the one where he recorded 4’33" of silence. I thought it would be interesting to see how well silence compresses. Anybody got the CD to rip? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/2 "2004-06-22T14:55:22Z")
There’s one [here](http://www.kukutz.atlant.ru/music/) - 4MB. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/3 "2004-06-22T14:55:59Z")
I think it will be dependent on the arrangement; if it is being played by a large symphony orchestra, the silence is likely to be more complex (and harder to compress) than, say if it was being played by a string quartet. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/4 "2004-06-22T15:43:32Z")
> [@Jake4](#): > > You know, that’s the one where he recorded 4’33" of silence. I thought it would be interesting to see how well silence compresses. > > Anybody got the CD to rip? 4:33 is 273 seconds. At 128 kilobits per second, you’re looking at 4,472,832 bytes, which is roughly 4.25 megabytes. Constant rate encoding is constant. Doesn’t matter what you’re encoding. Now, if you were to run that through a variable rate encoder, it would probably be a bit smaller. ---
**Author:** ![Jake4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bc8723/32.png) [@Jake4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake4)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/5 "2004-06-22T15:47:07Z")
Thanks for that reminder, **ultrafilter**. I knew that. :smack: Anyone want to take a whirl at encoding it VBR style? ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Clanger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@Small\_Clanger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Clanger)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/6 "2004-06-22T16:12:03Z")
> [@Jake4](#): > > . . . interesting to see how well silence compresses. Well it’d have a pretty small dynamic range even compared to parlour music. But how silent can it be really? What’s the signal to noise ratio on a CD, there’s gotta be some hiss? How about a cover version CD, like the Aussie ‘Stairways’ one which is nothing but Stairway to Heaven covers? \*\*4’33’ \*\* as performed by: Berlin Symphony Orchestra Chronos quartet The Darkness Britney Spears Elvis - no problem with keeping _really_ quiet. With a little organisation you could reform the Beatles! How would it sell d’y think? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/7 "2004-06-22T16:16:27Z")
Ok, I just created a 273 second, 16-bit, 44100 Hz, stereo wave file of silence – size: 48,157,696 bytes (100.00%). Encoding it with a LAME mp3 encoder, VBR, joint-stereo, highest quality – size: 1,087,529 bytes (2.26%). Encoding it with an Ogg encoder, highest quality – size: 28,884 bytes (0.06%). ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/8 "2004-06-22T17:36:56Z")
Recording silence seems sort of pretentious to me. What is he trying to say? He sounds like the musical equivalent of an “artist” whose masterpiece is a blank canvas. ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/9 "2004-06-22T18:02:21Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Recording silence seems sort of pretentious to me. What is he trying to say? That silence isn’t as silent as we tend to think it is. Maybe. Among other things. (If you could boil its message down to a sentence, it wouldn’t be much of a piece, would it?) From [one website](http://www.classicalnotes.net/columns/silence.html): > [@](#): > > Although often described as a silent piece, 4’33" isn’t silent at all. While the performer makes as little sound as possible, Cage breaks traditional boundaries by shifting attention from the stage to the audience and even beyond the concert hall. You soon become aware of a huge amount of sound, ranging from the mundane to the profound, from the expected to the surprising, from the intimate to the cosmic –shifting in seats, riffling programs to see what in the world is going on, breathing, the air conditioning, a creaking door, passing traffic, an airplane, ringing in your ears, a recaptured memory. This is a deeply personal music, which each witness creates to his/her own reactions to life. Concerts and records standardize our responses, but no two people will ever hear 4’33" the same way. It’s the ultimate sing-along: the audience (and the world) becomes the performer. And from the [NPR 100](http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/vote/list100.html) page: > [@](#): > > Writer Will Hermes presents the story behind this elusive musical composition written by avant-gardist John Cage. The piece, premiered in 1952, directs someone to close the lid of a piano, set a stopwatch, and sit in silence for four minutes and thirty-three seconds. Musicians and critics alike initially thought the piece a joke. But its premiere pianist, who never played a note, calls it his most intense listening experience. “4:33” speaks to the nature of sound and the musical nature of silence. You may or may not find it pretentious, but its importance and quality are open to debate. I’ve never heard it performed, so I don’t really have an opinion. I can’t decide if I’d be bored out of my skull or entranced. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/10 "2004-06-22T20:37:43Z")
Knowing that it’s just silence, How small _could_ it be? That is, you just wrote the headers for the MP3, vorbis, etc. necessary to make 4m33s of silence? ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/11 "2004-06-22T20:52:15Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > Knowing that it’s just silence, How small _could_ it be? > > That is, you just wrote the headers for the MP3, vorbis, etc. necessary to make 4m33s of silence? In addition to the headers, you need the actual recording itself. Otherwise, there’s nothing there. I would take **Pleonast** ’s numbers as reasonable lower bounds. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/12 "2004-06-22T21:08:24Z")
As well as affecting your perception of silence, a performance of the piece screws around with your perception of time. By the way, it’s a common misconception (as in the last quote by **Interrobang!?** ) that the performance should last for 4 mins 33 secs. The title comes from the duration of the premiere - the performer is free to make the three movements (yes, it’s in three movements 😉 ) whatever length they choose. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/13 "2004-06-22T22:54:36Z")
I wager the midi version would be pretty compact:D. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/14 "2004-06-22T23:15:25Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > I wager the midi version would be pretty compact:D. 240 bytes 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/15 "2004-06-22T23:46:06Z")
I have yet to hear this composition performed live. Oh sure, you can settle for lesser performers (there are “cover versions” by the London Philharmonic, The New York Symphony, The Harmonica Rascals, etc.) Still, I had always wanted to hear this conducted by the maestro himself. Sadly, Mr Cage passed away in 1992 so I’ll have to settle for lesser attempts at this complex work. It seems that some of you are not familiar with the works of John Cage. Perhaps he could be best described as Andy Kaufman with an orchestra. And if you are wondering why he chose 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence? This is 273 seconds of silence and -273° Celsius is absolute zero. Supposedly, this symbolixes the cessation of all motion. (And for the SDMB nitpickers I know absolute zero is -273.15° Celsius. Thank you) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/16 "2004-06-23T00:00:29Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > And if you are wondering why he chose 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence? > This is 273 seconds of silence and -273° Celsius is absolute zero. Supposedly, this symbolixes the cessation of all motion. There’s no evidence that this is anything other than coincidence. On a separate note, I’ve disproved my own earlier post through googling - the first performance _did_ list the piece as 4’ 33", and also the individual timings of the three movements. It was some years later than Cage stated that a performance of the piece could last for any duration. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/17 "2004-06-23T00:50:25Z")
**Gorilla Man** I am posting this link to show that _you_ are right [http://www.fact-index.com/d/de/definition\_of\_music\_1.html](http://www.fact-index.com/d/de/definition_of_music_1.html) Sure, I found other links that do mention the absolute zero connection, but _none_ are verified as originating from John Cage. I believe the first time I heard of the absolute zero “symbolism” was in an article by Martin Gardner in an article entitled “Nothing”. (I’m sure most “Dopers” are familiar with Mr Gardner’s work as a recreational mathematician. Seems even he was taken in by this myth). ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/18 "2004-06-23T01:01:26Z")
That link actually gives an excellent, concise description of the piece…and I liked this comment: > [@](#): > > Some people deal with the challenges posed by 4’ 33" by simply refusing to consider it as music. ---
**Author:** ![tadc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@tadc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tadc)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/19 "2004-06-23T02:54:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Although often described as a silent piece, 4’33" isn’t silent at all. While the performer makes as little sound as possible, Cage breaks traditional boundaries by shifting attention from the stage to the audience and even beyond the concert hall. You soon become aware of a huge amount of sound, ranging from the mundane to the profound, from the expected to the surprising, from the intimate to the cosmic –shifting in seats, riffling programs to see what in the world is going on, breathing, the air conditioning, a creaking door, passing traffic, an airplane, ringing in your ears, a recaptured memory. This is a deeply personal music, which each witness creates to his/her own reactions to life. Concerts and records standardize our responses, but no two people will ever hear 4’33" the same way. It’s the ultimate sing-along: the audience (and the world) becomes the performer. So please clarify- do these (any) sounds actually appear on the recording, or are they contributed by the listening environment? ---
**Author:** ![Catalyst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@Catalyst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catalyst)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631/20 "2004-06-23T05:38:18Z")
Note to self: people will pay for anything, including nothing. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-a-file-is-a-128-kbps-mp3-of-john-cages-433/251631.md?page=2)