# How large should the social safety net be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704 "2019-10-30T16:39:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/21 "2019-10-30T22:43:02Z")
And along with all this UBI gatekeeping will we also implement measures to stop rich people from buying stupid shit like millions for a painting (barely disguised money laundering, THAT is) or solid gold toilet seats for the yachts they’re parking in their yachts? Or does this paternalistic attitude only apply to poor people? Kardashians can waste millions on plastic surgery to make their butts enormous but dude down the street on UBI can’t buy a six pack? Fuck that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/22 "2019-10-30T23:29:45Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > And I perceive Americans as generally opposed to paying the true costs of what they consume. They want cheap fuel, and an expensive military to force the rest of the world to “subsidize” the American way of life. Then take health care. I’ve been meaning to research how - if at all - countries like Britain/Canada deal with excessive consumption. You don’t have to go there - you can look at Medicare here. With the advantage that we Medicare recipients don’t even have to take time off from work to go to the doctor. What I found when I searched for over consumption of Medicare is [this](https://hbr.org/2014/12/how-to-stop-the-overconsumption-of-health-care). Which is not about patients demanding too much care, but low value treatments and tests. I know the issues with doing away with this stuff, but in principle I think most who support single payer “free” plans are fine with working on this. ACA had some support for evidence based medicine. Now many people do have some co-pays (I don’t) but I doubt that keeps many people away. Sitting in a doctor’s office isn’t that much fun. Mostly doctors don’t have to and shouldn’t prescribe expensive and unnecessary treatment, and removing the incentive for them to do so (which exists in our non-Medicare plans) would help reduce the over-consumption you are worried about. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/23 "2019-10-30T23:33:56Z")
When computing the cost of a social safety net, you have to look at all the factors, and not just the immediate costs. We don’t have free college, unlike much of Europe, and even public colleges are getting more expensive. That saves government money in the short run, but what about the issue of people not starting new businesses, getting married, or buying houses because they are weighed down with college debt? Look at the cost of homelessness in lots of places. Look at the cost of lost productivity because our roads suck. We need to look at the big picture. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/24 "2019-10-30T23:48:12Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > And along with all this UBI gatekeeping will we also implement measures to stop rich people from buying stupid shit like millions for a painting (barely disguised money laundering, THAT is) or solid gold toilet seats for the yachts they’re parking in their yachts? Or does this paternalistic attitude only apply to poor people? Kardashians can waste millions on plastic surgery to make their butts enormous but dude down the street on UBI can’t buy a six pack? Fuck that. So are you proposing that the safety nets needs to be such that whatever the richest person can have society needs to provide to the poorest or that we need to allow UBI recipients to do whatever they want with their income since we don’t regulate conspicuous consumption. I agree with the later to the point that I would be ok letting someone who spent their rent money on drugs die in the street. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/25 "2019-10-30T23:56:01Z")
In America, about 25% of GDP is paid in taxes. [![](https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fniallmccarthy%2Ffiles%2F2017%2F11%2F20171129_Tax-1.jpg) ](https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fniallmccarthy%2Ffiles%2F2017%2F11%2F20171129_Tax-1.jpg) Granted, some of that is deficit spending. If we had 0 deficit spending (before hte Trump tax cuts) I’m guessing it’d be closer to 29% to balance the budget. Nations are able to handle 35-45% of GDP as taxes. Denmark, Germany, France, etc. So I’d be in favor of taxes being closer to 35% of GDP. Assuming you balance the budget, that is an additional 1.2 trillion or so to work with. Forms of advances in the social safety net I’d support. Jobs program for people who want (but can’t find) a job to work on infrastructure programs. Universal health care. Free public college. Increases in social security payments for people whose AIME is less than $5000 a month. UBI when automation causes mass unemployment. On top of that, I don’t know if these count as social safety nets but More spending on renewable energy (will create jobs) more spending on R&D (also create jobs) More spending on public transit ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/26 "2019-10-31T01:13:16Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Then, it’s factually inaccurate, isn’t it? The recipient, by dint of being a member of society, contributes to the payment, albeit indirectly. It’s only ‘free’ at the point of use, but that’s not weird or uncommon - do you think you get ‘free’ cable because you don’t pay a fee every time you turn on the TV? … There are, in fact, [a significant number of people that do _NOT_ “contribute to the payment”](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/81-million-americans-wont-pay-any-federal-income-taxes-this-year-heres-why-2018-04-16). > [@Moriarty](#): > > … If Yang has a budgetary plan to pay for this, it’s not free; rather, it’s being paid by whomever supplies the funds in that budget. If the general citizenry is the source of that budget (in the form of taxes), then the citizens are paying for it. … _SOME_ of the citizens are paying for it. > [@Moriarty](#): > > … And your position that the recipients wouldn’t have earned it seems an odd point to make about something that would be added to the social safety net. What, exactly (besides being a member of society) did you do to ‘earn’ the right to go to public school, or be able to call 911 if you need emergency assistance? … I wouldn’t use the word “earned” to describe either of those things either (or “right” for that matter). > [@Moriarty](#): > > … Does this include protection from foreign invasion? Is that also something that should not be administered by the federal government, or is the military somehow exempt from the idea that a large federal program is not worthwhile? … I’m fine with the federal government administering our protection from foreign invasion. There’s clear authorization for that in the Constitution: > [@Article 1](#): > > The Congress shall have Power … To raise and support Armies… [&] To provide and maintain a Navy… > [@Moriarty](#): > > Also, “smaller than it is today” - So, what are you getting rid of? 911? Emergency room care? Public schooling? What elements of modern American society that we all have access to should be removed from availability. Most of the things you list here aren’t generally administered by the federal government today. As for where I’d cut if it were solely up to me, I haven’t put together a detailed plan because there’s absolutely no chance of it happening. How 'bout this if you’re itching for a proposal though: cut the budget of every [non-defense discretionary program](https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/policy-basics-non-defense-discretionary-programs) in half, and freeze it at that level until we have a budget surplus. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/27 "2019-10-31T01:27:11Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > And along with all this UBI gatekeeping will we also implement measures to stop rich people from buying stupid shit like millions for a painting (barely disguised money laundering, THAT is) or solid gold toilet seats for the yachts they’re parking in their yachts? Or does this paternalistic attitude only apply to poor people? Kardashians can waste millions on plastic surgery to make their butts enormous but dude down the street on UBI can’t buy a six pack? Fuck that. As long as the Kardashians don’t come back to mommy [fed.gov](http://fed.gov), hat in hand, asking for more money for groceries or rent, IDGAF how big their butts are or how many gold toilet seats they own. Same goes for the “dude down the street”. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/28 "2019-10-31T01:28:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What happens when those “least employable” people end up getting evicted / starving because rather than purchasing groceries and paying rent, or paying the water and gas bills with their money they want to Disneyland or bought a bunch of meth with their $1000? … Good point. So what do we do with them? Kill them? Let them starve? > [@Voyager](#): > > You don’t have to go there - you can look at Medicare here. With the advantage that we Medicare recipients don’t even have to take time off from work to go to the doctor. OK. So how do we get doctors to stop ordering the tests that the gov’t pays for. And keep patients from demanding them? ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/29 "2019-10-31T01:44:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There are, in fact, [a significant number of people that do _NOT_ “contribute to the payment”](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/81-million-americans-wont-pay-any-federal-income-taxes-this-year-heres-why-2018-04-16). > > _SOME_ of the citizens are paying for it. > I wouldn’t use the word “earned” to describe either of those things either (or “right” for that matter). > > I’m fine with the federal government administering our protection from foreign invasion. There’s clear authorization for that in the Constitution: > > Most of the things you list here aren’t generally administered by the federal government today. As for where I’d cut if it were solely up to me, I haven’t put together a detailed plan because there’s absolutely no chance of it happening. How 'bout this if you’re itching for a proposal though: cut the budget of every [non-defense discretionary program](https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/policy-basics-non-defense-discretionary-programs) in half, and freeze it at that level until we have a budget surplus. If you are really serious, why not cut defense spending. You might as well, because according to your own cite: "Health care and health research constitute 22 percent ($148 billion) of NDD spending in 2019. These programs support health research and the provision of health care services but do not include Medicare and Medicaid, which are mandatory programs. Roughly half of NDD health spending provides hospital and medical care for veterans." That means about 11% of what you want to cut in half goes to veterans medical care. If you are not going to pay for that, you might as well cut the defense budget so there are fewer of those money sucking wounded vets draining the budget. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/30 "2019-10-31T01:54:41Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Good point. So what do we do with them? Kill them? Let them starve? … Rather than giving them $1,000 in cold, hard cash, we provide them things like food stamps, and heating fuel assistance, and give them Section 8 housing, etc. In other words, it looks a lot more like the safety net we have today (less cash, more goods and services) than Yang’s envisioned UBI. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/31 "2019-10-31T02:05:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There are, in fact, [a significant number of people that do _NOT_ “contribute to the payment”](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/81-million-americans-wont-pay-any-federal-income-taxes-this-year-heres-why-2018-04-16). Typical, conflating “not paying federal income tax” with “paying no tax at all.” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/32 "2019-10-31T02:10:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Typical, conflating “not paying federal income tax” with “paying no tax at all.” Not at all. I understand the distinction, but Yang’s UBI isn’t going to be paid for with state or local taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/33 "2019-10-31T02:28:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not at all. I understand the distinction, but Yang’s UBI isn’t going to be paid for with state or local taxes. If these citizens pay their state’s taxes, the state won’t require as many transfer payments from the feds (and may even be able to transfer TO the feds) so what difference does it make? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/34 "2019-10-31T03:00:15Z")
Sorry if I am late, but the social safety net should allow all citizens to enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/35 "2019-10-31T03:11:34Z")
It should be large enough that nobody should have to starve or go homeless or go uneducated or go without at least basic medical care. I am all for the illuminating forces of competitive capitalism. But this should be for reserved things like discovering who can invest the better mousetrap or the bigger bullshit social media site. We learn from those competitions, we get innovations, consumers benefit. Society doesn’t learn anything from figuring out who does the greatest job of feeding or housing their families. Nobody learns any new approach to that, nobody really gets actionable information from knowing that filthy rich people get more food. If you really want a vibrant market of ideas, stop making people waste their brainpower figuring out where their next meal or next insulin dose is coming from. Solve those problems and let them work on more valuable things. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/36 "2019-10-31T03:18:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not at all. I understand the distinction, but Yang’s UBI isn’t going to be paid for with state or local taxes. It’s ironic that you’re ignoring FICA payroll taxes, since they fund social security and Medicare, two features of today’s social safety net. … Respectfully, I think discussions of costs are deviating from the more salient point - what do we provide people in this country? Only after we answer that question can we discuss how much it will cost and how to pay for it. I personally think the proposals to increase access to education and healthcare are natural and wise expansions of our current system. I question whether a UBI would effectively serve as a social safety net. Are it’s supporters really suggesting that it would supplant all other social services, or is it just a proposed addition to things like unemployment insurance, food stamps, section 8 housing, free school lunch, et al? ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/37 "2019-10-31T03:36:38Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > I question whether a UBI would effectively serve as a social safety net. Are it’s supporters really suggesting that it would supplant all other social services, or is it just a proposed addition to things like unemployment insurance, food stamps, section 8 housing, free school lunch, et al? I can’t speak for Yang but in my ideal implementation, yes. We minimize the government’s intervention in people’s life, no telling them to buy brocolli instead of beer or live in a particular section of town, or don’t donate it to your church rather we let people decide what makes their lives better while giving them enough money to meet their basic needs. The nice thing about the monthly check is you always have the opportunity to do something different next month. Though I am intrigued by the daily payments though the administration costs may out weight the benefits. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/38 "2019-10-31T03:37:46Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > OK. So how do we get doctors to stop ordering the tests that the gov’t pays for. And keep patients from demanding them? Each person picks a primary care physician and the government pays that primary care physician a fixed annual sum; the government pays a hospital a fixed sum for each heart attack… There are several alternatives to the current fee for service method. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/39 "2019-10-31T03:47:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What happens when those “least employable” people end up getting evicted / starving because rather than purchasing groceries and paying rent, or paying the water and gas bills with their money they want to Disneyland or bought a bunch of meth with their $1000? Don’t you understand that with food stamps these type people don’t spend those food stamps on food; they sell them at a discount for cash so they can go and buy booze or drugs or whatever? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/40 "2019-10-31T04:26:34Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Don’t you understand that with food stamps these type people don’t spend those food stamps on food; they sell them at a discount for cash so they can go and buy booze or drugs or whatever? Yes, I understand that happens. Our current social safety net is too large. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704.md?page=3)