# How large should the social safety net be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704 "2019-10-30T16:39:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/41 "2019-10-31T04:39:00Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > It’s ironic that you’re ignoring FICA payroll taxes, since they fund social security and Medicare, two features of today’s social safety net. … It’s precisely because SS & Medicare are funded by a separate payroll tax that most people seem to have more of a sense of having “earned” their SS. They DID pay into it (well, many of us did anyways) and it’s not really a “free” giveaway to them. WIC, SNAP, etc, and the other more traditional “welfare” components of the social safety net? The people taking advantage of them often haven’t paid for them. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/42 "2019-10-31T06:09:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The people taking advantage of them often haven’t paid for them. If true, so? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/43 "2019-10-31T06:24:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If true, so? It was a response / counter-point to this claim: > [@Moriarty](#): > > Then, it’s factually inaccurate, isn’t it? The recipient, by dint of being a member of society, contributes to the payment, albeit indirectly. It’s only ‘free’ at the point of use, but that’s not weird or uncommon - do you think you get ‘free’ cable because you don’t pay a fee every time you turn on the TV? … If true, then the recipient doesn’t actually “contribute to the payment”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/44 "2019-10-31T06:45:38Z")
I’m afraid I have to reiterate “If true, so?” since the relevance is unclear. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/45 "2019-10-31T11:20:09Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Less than the cost of NOT providing it. These things are going to be paid for, it’s merely a question of who’s paying it and how efficiently the resources are allocated. For instance, I live in Portland OR and we have a huge problem of homelessness here. Homeless people get their needs met and right now I and others who’re not all that far above the homeless in terms of actual wealth are paying for their needs via stolen items, camps along the bike trails and in every available spot of public land and picking up their shit and garbage and used needles. Personally, I would prefer the government, which has WAY more resources than I and my neighbors do, would pick up the tab for these impoverished citizens because I fucking well can’t afford it. This is not an efficient form of allocation at all and a lot of us are fucking sick of things functioning in this lame and halting manner. It sucks. Well that’s the thing, yes we should provide housing BUT, does it have to be in an expensive area like Portland? Yes, we should provide basic medical care, BUT, does that cover every medical test, drug, procedure and hospital stay a doctor or a person wants? (sidenote - my cousin in Denmark had to pay to take his wife to a private hospital for surgery when the government wait list was too long.) Yes, we can provide free college, BUT, does that mean a person can stay in college for 10 years while only keeping a C average? Do we have to pay for every field of study? Do we have to pay for the most expensive colleges around including private? Do we hold colleges responsible for holding the line on spending? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/46 "2019-10-31T11:25:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > One possible “floor” for the social safety net – everything that’s provided to imprisoned convicted criminals. If we give criminals a bare minimum of food, shelter, and health care, then maybe we should give someone whose crime is laziness, or non-criminal foolishness, the same, at a minimum. Well consider in a prison they dont give you food money, not even food stamps. Your given a prison ration and you have darn little say on what they give you. On housing your given a cell which you might have to share with someone. You dont get to keep a pet or have your family with you. In most prisons you have a job you must do. So I dont think its similar. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/47 "2019-10-31T11:38:53Z")
I’ve not examined the details of Andrew Yang’s plan, but there are reasons why a one-size-fits-all UBI replacing other welfare programs is a bad idea. For starters, people collect disability payments because they paid insurance premiums, sustained a possibly work-related accident, and can no longer get a salary. Should a worker still able to work draw the same total assistance as the victim of disability? Denying the UBI to children seems backwards. Childless adults can usually muddle through. It’s those who _do_ have children who need special help. And — though I’ve been booed down for this opinion in the past — some of UBI benefits should be delivered in kind rather than in cash: access to cheap food and housing, education, healthcare, childcare. This approach would _reduce_ the total cost to taxpayers of UBI while _increasing_ the benefit to the needy. With the above components in place, and perhaps some UBI in the form of cash as well, I think we can just continue to find ways to subsidize higher education without making it absolutely free. > [@Moriarty](#): > > … Take fire abatement… Today, nobody thinks it odd, strange, or remotely controversial that anybody in town is entitled to help from the fire department if something is ablaze, or that the fee for this sort of thing is paid for indirectly by the community. > > … the aforementioned fire abatement are currently entrenched parts of American life, and it would be a shock (and probably quite controversial) should somebody start trying to remove them, or make them fee-based (“911, what credit card will you be using today?”)… Apparently you missed the news story (from somewhere near Appalachia?) of the fire department who stood by and watched as someone’s home burned to the ground. The fire department had shown up only in case the fire spread to any of the neighboring homes which _were_ owned by subscribers. > [@SmartAleq](#): > > Oh, and in before “I don’t want my taxes paying for…” because taxes don’t pay for a goddamned thing in this country … MMT is a thing and it’s reality. I don’t know if SDMB is ready for a thread on Modern Monetary Theory. And AFAIK the only prominent political thinker who has come out in explicit favor of MMT is … _Rush Limbaugh!_ :eek: > [@Max\_S](#): > > No, you misunderstand me. In my opinion the maximum cost of the “safety net” should be such that in the long run, the sum of all those welfare programs, along with all other government expenditures, are less than or equal to the total of all government revenue. It sounds like you’re not quite ready to support MMT. 😛 Even so, I’m slightly confused. Is government revenue a fixed constant, like the melting point of copper? Or might tax revenue be allowed to increase when spending increases? ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/48 "2019-10-31T11:56:33Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I think everyone would get on board with that. What is that cost? No. Many people would not get on board with that. The poor are always getting split into the deserving and undeserving poor. Many people will not be okay with giving such benefits to the “undeserving” poor. The safety net also fails for people who have severe mental illnesses or are drug addicts, unless the government manages their money. (This is one reason I’m semi-opposed to “harm reduction”.) What do you do in a case like this: [Is it OK if someone wants to live for years on a bench?](https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-50211901) They’ve been offered housing, even their original housing. They haven’t been diagnosed with anything, either. But they refuse to live in a home. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/49 "2019-10-31T11:58:18Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well consider in a prison they dont give you food money, not even food stamps. Your given a prison ration and you have darn little say on what they give you. On housing your given a cell which you might have to share with someone. You dont get to keep a pet or have your family with you. In most prisons you have a job you must do. > > So I dont think its similar. This doesn’t actually conflict with what I said. The “bare minumum” food, shelter, and medical care could be prison-quality rations, a tiny concrete room with a small bed and a toilet, and prison-quality health care. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/50 "2019-10-31T13:00:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Rather than giving them $1,000 in cold, hard cash, we provide them things like food stamps, and heating fuel assistance, and give them Section 8 housing, etc. In other words, it looks a lot more like the safety net we have today (less cash, more goods and services) than Yang’s envisioned UBI. OK. I generally favor all of those. (Of course, a good percentage of folk/reps don’t.) One undeniable benefit of universal income is that it eliminates the administrative costs of the programs you cite. And I speak as a career employee of Social Security administering the disability programs. Instead of deciding who is poor, disabled, or not, pay everyone, and recoup it from the employed/wealthy. > [@PastTense](#): > > Each person picks a primary care physician and the government pays that primary care physician a fixed annual sum; the government pays a hospital a fixed sum for each heart attack… There are several alternatives to the current fee for service method. Sounds good to me. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/51 "2019-10-31T13:19:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This doesn’t actually conflict with what I said. The “bare minumum” food, shelter, and medical care could be prison-quality rations, a tiny concrete room with a small bed and a toilet, and prison-quality health care. Actually many shelters are run this way. They get a bed for the night, food (on a chow line - like one tray per person), bathroom, and a place to shower and wash their clothes. They also have access to counseling, education, and job programs. They break the rules and they are out. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/52 "2019-10-31T13:59:42Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > OK. I generally favor all of those. (Of course, a good percentage of folk/reps don’t.) One undeniable benefit of universal income is that it eliminates the administrative costs of the programs you cite. And I speak as a career employee of Social Security administering the disability programs. Instead of deciding who is poor, disabled, or not, pay everyone, and recoup it from the employed/wealthy. > > Sounds good to me. Of course it sounds good to you. You get to replace your job of processing paperwork for poor people receiving benefits or whatever with a check for doing essentially nothing. For someone like me, I just see having to work harder because more hands are in my pocket. That is, unless you can convince me that the benefits of UI for all are offset by the reduction in administration costs for targeting benefits (with numbers…not handwaving). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/53 "2019-10-31T14:05:49Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Healthcare: Should it be available without point of sale costs only when there’s a dire emergency, or should that also apply to preventive care or more mundane maladies? Preventive care is one of those cases where a penny invested avoiding problems can save thousands spent in minimizing them once they’ve happened. From vaccines to reasonable amounts and types of wellness checks (where “reasonable” is defined according to the current status of medical knowledge and not in order to maximize billing), if there is one single area of medical care that should be covered it’s preventive care. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/54 "2019-10-31T14:34:33Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Is government revenue a fixed constant, like the melting point of copper? Or might tax revenue be allowed to increase when spending increases? No; yes, to an extent. You have to worry about increased fiscal spending crowding out private financing, and there are lots of nuances about _where_ you spend money that have to be taken into account when estimating a fiscal multiplier. Crowding out is my primary concern with expansionary fiscal policy when public debt is already over 100% of the GDP (!). And you’re right. I’m not a fan of MMP, but I haven’t done much research on it. The idea that you can sell more bonds (decreasing banking reserves) without raising interest rates is beyond my immediate comprehension. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/55 "2019-10-31T15:14:30Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Of course it sounds good to you. You get to replace your job of processing paperwork for poor people receiving benefits or whatever with a check for doing essentially nothing… Please re-read. I think you misrepresent my post. My comment “Sounds good to me” was re: medical costs, not universal income. My begrudging support for the idea of grossly reforming “entitlement” programs would very much be against my personal interests. Unless you are Bill Gates, it is unlikely that what you would pay in increased taxes would come close to what I would lose in salary. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/56 "2019-10-31T15:48:48Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I always suggest, given the rich, roboticized society we have, or want to have, people should be afforded a completely decent basic living without having to pay anything extra, because I would rather see talented, motivated people at my workplace rather than someone who brings negative utility but needs a job to afford the rent. This is one of many reasons I support UBI. I am not sure how “decent,” though, and I would eliminate many programs. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/57 "2019-10-31T15:51:13Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I’m not a fan of MMP, but I haven’t done much research on it. The idea that you can sell more bonds (decreasing banking reserves) without raising interest rates is beyond my immediate comprehension. Reading a primer, I guess they are saying you don’t need to issue bonds and can just pay for things with new money. That is interesting but I think it is dangerous to assume that directly increasing the money supply with fiscal policy (if it’s even called that any more) won’t result in inflation. Fatal political issues aside, taxes have a significant effect on MPC and international markets that I don’t think is being accounted for under MMP. Direct regulation of non-monopoly companies will likely result in either passing along costs (more inflation), or if properly done, will reduce the supply of relevant goods and services (more inflation). So unless we assume that most inflation is due to eg: corporate abuse of market powers, I don’t see an effective way to combat inflation. And the fatal political issues are fatal, in my opinion. The Fed isn’t going to set tax rates any time soon, and I don’t trust Congress to handle monetary policy. The priorities of Congress just aren’t aligned correctly. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/58 "2019-10-31T16:54:02Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > OK. I generally favor all of those. (Of course, a good percentage of folk/reps don’t.) One undeniable benefit of universal income is that it eliminates the administrative costs of the programs you cite. And I speak as a career employee of Social Security administering the disability programs. Instead of deciding who is poor, disabled, or not, pay everyone, and recoup it from the employed/wealthy. > > Sounds good to me. Sounds like the government should immediately find some remote location, build a ton of Section 8 housing and start bussing them there. Build a hospital such that Medicare type service is provided (long wait times but near unlimited coverage) , and a food outlet of some sort. Recoup the money on the back end by not having to provide SNAP, WIC, welfare etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/59 "2019-10-31T17:04:43Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Sounds like the government should immediately find some remote location, build a ton of Section 8 housing and start bussing them there. Build a hospital such that Medicare type service is provided (long wait times but near unlimited coverage) , and a food outlet of some sort. > > Recoup the money on the back end by not having to provide SNAP, WIC, welfare etc. ISTR something similar was discussed on these boards recently. I believe someplace in Washington or Oregon proposed rehabbing a prison into a shelter. But various folk opposed providing for folk “there” rather than where they were. But ANYTHING that requires oversight - even down to “workfare”, involves administrative costs greater than just cutting checks. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704/60 "2019-10-31T17:06:37Z")
MMT is not a belief system nor is it a scheme of some sort. It’s a description of how things work in the real world for a country with a sovereign fiat currency. It’s like gravity, it works whether anyone believes in it or not, because any theory regarding gravity is just a mathematical interpretation of observed functioning. [Here’s a primer](http://neweconomicperspectives.org/modern-monetary-theory-primer.html) that should keep y’all busy for a while. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-large-should-the-social-safety-net-be/842704.md?page=4)