# How likely are sex workers to be exploited? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968 "2010-05-27T16:46:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/101 "2010-06-01T17:47:24Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > I think I disagree with this statement. “Majority?” Really? You are free to disagree, although the basis of your disagreement is, I suspect, your feelings vs. your knowledge and experience. My stepmother is [Norma](http://www.libertarianrepublican.net/2007/12/cop-to-call-girl-norma-jean-almodovar.html) [Jean](http://www.hollywoodinvestigator.com/2008/normajean.htm) [Almodovar](http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?r=1&ISBN=0671794256&z=y). I have known her since I was a kid, and I’ve known what she did since the 80’s. I sit on the board of [ISWFACE](http://www.iswface.org/), I make my living in the sex industry and have off and on via different routes most of my life. I have personally known and met hundreds of sex workers, including many prostitutes and madams. That’s where my information comes from. And you? ---
**Author:** ![Tymp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Tymp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tymp)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/102 "2010-06-01T17:50:55Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > By the way, I’ve suspected some of the more lurid trafficking stories of having been planted by pro-illegal immigrant activists or immigration lawyers, as a suspiciously prevalent theme is the urgent need for a “victim of trafficking” asylum provision. That’d be a holy grail for at least half the illegal immigrants going, as all you’d have to do is recite some rote story of being forced into prostitution in a secret (and hence un-verifiable) brothel and hey presto the economic migrant is home free. I don’t know of trafficking stories that are more lurid than those that involve investigation, prosecution and conviction. The DOJ and ICE have provided more verifiable details than anyone else in the US. Samples of the [specific cases](http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/factsheets/humantrafficking.htm) that they make public are about as ugly as any I’ve heard from other sources. ICE is authorized to grant 5000 T Visas per year. Since the adoption of that visa type in 2001, they’ve granted just north of 1000 in total. Such visas have been granted to only a portion of those certified as victims of trafficking, and those certified represent only a fraction of the individuals identified by DOJ as being at risk as trafficking victims. The bar for certification is pretty high and there’s no guarantee of a T visa after certification. Other visa types are likely better targets for those looking to fraudulently acquire one. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/103 "2010-06-01T18:04:18Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > That’s where my information comes from. > > And you? With respect, “non street-level” rather changes the discussion, though, doesn’t it? Moreover, it doesn’t matter how many you know personally unless you have reason to believe you know a representative sample. I seriously doubt, for instance, that ISWFACE members are a solid cross-section of the population, even given your limitation of the parameters. It’s also worth noting that, you know, the street level workers count too. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/104 "2010-06-01T18:20:53Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > With respect, “non street-level” rather changes the discussion, though, doesn’t it? Moreover, it doesn’t matter how many you know personally unless you have reason to believe you know a representative sample. I seriously doubt, for instance, that ISWFACE members are a solid cross-section of the population, even given your limitation of the parameters. > > It’s also worth noting that, you know, the street level workers count too. Not when I’m not counting them, and that’s exactly the point of the whole topic: sex work, and prostitution as a subset of sex work, is engaged in by all kinds of women at all levels. Making sweeping assertions about sex work, prostitutes, etc, is bullshit. Especially since the prostitutes that get the most scrutiny tend to be the “street level” sort, because they are the most exposed and the most often busted. Smart women with educations and options tend not to get busted or exposed, so they don’t figure as prominently in studies and research. Because for every non-street-level prostitute that a researcher can find and talk to, there are hundreds, thousands, millions that they have no idea exist at all. So, getting back around to the “representative sample”, the fact that I am: 1. Extremely prostitute-positive 2. Very connected to many prostitutes personally 3. Very connected to a variety of politically organized prostitutes 4. Very connected to prostitute organizations Puts me in the position of having a far more accurate idea based on a far more accurate “sample” than pretty much anyone who is researching or writing about prostitution. I have genuine access in a way that no one who is not as connected as I am (or more so) can hope to have. Because I’m completely safe, trusted and known. Think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/105 "2010-06-01T19:03:28Z")
OK, I thought about it. Millions of highly-paid prostitutes that a researcher can’t find. Really. More than one out of every 310 people in the country is a secretly well-off call girl with a college degree. I’m thinking about it right now. I don’t agree with you, despite the fact that you are the number one expert in the world on the subject, for my ignorance of which I apologize. Anyway, which sweeping generalizations have I made? You’re the one making claims about majorities and millions, aren’t you? Which, really, has nothing to do with the question of how likely sex workers are to be exploited either way, your redefinition of the discussion notwithstanding. And that’s my only point. You may know every non-exploited sex worker in the world, and you still aren’t any more or less qualified to talk about the ones who are. By discounting the entirety of the class of sex workers who _are_ likely to be exploited, you paint an extremely biased portrait of the whole. It may be the case that you are very “prostitute-positive” as far as your experience goes, but I can promise you that to the physically abused “street level” people you’re talking about, your perspective isn’t all that much more helpful than **Happy Poster** ’s. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/106 "2010-06-01T19:46:40Z")
It’s very difficult to have any kind of debate if the parties debating are not accurately representing the opposing party’s position. a quick review, with added emphasis for the parts you should note: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Odesio > The prostitutes I’ve seen/read being interviewed even in places like Amsterdam did it because they had few other options. > > Originally Posted by STOID: > Which is true of a lot of jobs that have unpleasant aspects. Why single out prostitution? > > Especially given the fact that **many** prostitutes are completely fine with it, in every way. Choosing prostitution is very empowering. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Freudian Slit > Is it really all that **empowering**? Are there that many people choosing it who **are educated** or **have other option** s? > > Originally Posted by STOID: > Absolutely! The **majority** of **call girls, escorts, and other non-street-level prostitutes are educated and have other option** s, and a significant percentage of them are actually paying their way through college with the work. Then you, Jimmy, say: > [@](#): > > With respect, “non street-level” rather changes the discussion, though, doesn’t it? > > Moreover, it doesn’t matter how many you know personally unless you have reason to believe you know a representative sample. > > It’s also worth noting that, you know, the street level workers count too. And I replied with my “credentials”, so to speak, and noted that I intended to not count the street level workers, as just shown to you. Then you turn the above into: > [@](#): > > > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > > > Millions of highly-paid prostitutes that a researcher can’t find. > > More than one out of every 310 people in the country is a secretly well-off call girl with a college degree. > > despite the fact that you are the number one expert in the world on the subject, and go on to rant a bit more about the turn my sector of the discussion has taken. I think it’s very clear that what I’m saying and what you think I’m saying are not the same thing, and I’m really not interested in defending or explaining things I have NOT said, and I expect everyone to make it a practice to review what other people HAVE said so they react and respond appropriately. One of the reasons I’ve always enjoyed online debate is because each participant’s words are preserved and reviewable, there’s no “you said X!” “Oh no I didn’t!” junk to bog things down. So let me add to my actual statements with this: Prositutes can be loosely segregated into two major groups: those who choose to do it with a clear mind and the personal freedom to do so, and those who are forced into it, either literally via control by other people or figuratively via drug addiction or other impairment. When I talk about what I know about prostitutes, I am referring to women (and men) who choose it with free will and a clear mind. And part of what I know about the people who choose it is that there boatloads more of them than people think. And I’m not the world’s number one expert, I don’t know that any single individual is such a thing, but I hang out with the experts. And yeah, that makes my information way more reliable than anyone whose information is primarily whatever they can Google. So, if you still have some complaint with my _actual_ statements, cool. I’ll be glad to check it out. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/107 "2010-06-01T19:54:32Z")
By the way, for everyone: a very enlightening source of info is the silly HBO show about the Bunny Ranch. The girls who work there are a good representation of women who choose it. There’s very smart cookies who are completely fine with what they are doing, including some very highly educated ones. It’s a great gig if you can personally get into it and you have what it takes. Considering that relations between men and women have pretty much always come down to some kind of security-for-sex tradeoff, prostitution is just openly acknowledging, formalizing, and taking control of it on the part of women, and yes, that’s extremely empowering. It’s just doing what a lot of women would secretly like to do if they had the nerve: telling the guy that instead of the dinner/candy/flowers/jewelry/house/car/clothes/vacation/whatever, just write a check instead and I’ll decide how I want to spend it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/108 "2010-06-01T20:11:41Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Not when I’m not counting them… Well, that’s pretty selective of you. May as well just limit it to prostitutes who get swept away by rich clients and use ‘Pretty Woman’ as your evidence. :rolleyes: No, I cannot exclude so-called “street level” workers from the discussion. The fact that you feel you can is mildly disturbing to me - that means they do not count as sex workers or that they do not count as people. Such dehumanizing of these people is unbecoming from a brutish male who might abuse such a person in an alleyway after a transaction-gone-bad, let alone an educated woman who claims to be an ally of these people. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/109 "2010-06-01T20:35:55Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Well, that’s pretty selective of you. May as well just limit it to prostitutes who get swept away by rich clients and use ‘Pretty Woman’ as your evidence. :rolleyes: Ummm… please read #106. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![lexi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lexi/32/6806_2.png) [@lexi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lexi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/110 "2010-06-01T20:40:22Z")
I have no idea if Stoid is correct about the higher class escorts, but from personal experience I know many women who were/are street prostitutes and escorts that did not have options. I was a teenage runaway, and I personally knew dozens of girls who worked the streets, I knew more than one girl who was kidnapped by a pimp, and I knew many who were forced by man they thought were boyfriends. Girls as young as 12 were in the life. I knew a 14 year old forced to work two days after a miscarriage. I knew one 17 year old girl who was murdered by a john. I even helped “rescue” girls from pimps one more than one occasion, which involved getting them out of town as fast as possible so that the pimp could not retaliate. I knew escorts who lived with nothing more than a mattress on the floor in an apartment rented & controlled by their pimp. I knew more than enough girls who have left this world through suicide, OD, and AIDS. This was exploitation. I also knew girls who because their education level was no higher than grade 6, and also drug addictions had little or no option to continue working in the trade. I also knew one of the most fascinating people ever by the name of Cherry Kingsley. She is a tireless activist against the sexual exploitation of children, and yet she also helped found Canadian National Coalition of Experiential Women and is an advocate of the rights of sex workers. She has won a Governor General’s Award, spoken publicly to international audiences, and yet she still has worked in the sex trade within the past few years and she still battles drug addiction. I know her well enough to say she would prefer not to work in the sex trade, but I also know she has a rough time of staying out. I would not say she is exploited now, but her experiences are very different from the women Stoid knows. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/111 "2010-06-01T21:14:18Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Ummm… please read #106. > > Thanks. Ummm… please read #1. I’ll even quote the pertinent portion: > [@](#): > > I would presume that high-end call girls are most likely to be sex workers by choice and street hookers in a poor neighborhood least likely. So the OP is not asking about one specific class of sex worker, yet you feel compelled to snap your fingers and make vanish probably the largest class of sex workers just to make a point. If you need to do that to make your point, maybe the point isn’t worth making. Really, Stoid, I assure you that I am very pro-sex worker. I would prefer the industry be regulated to ensure safety for clients and workers rather than exist in back alleys and Craig’s List ads. But ignoring the largest class of sex workers doesn’t do them or your position justice. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/112 "2010-06-01T21:25:41Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > So, if you still have some complaint with my _actual_ statements, cool. I’ll be glad to check it out. This is really very simple. The OP asks a very straightforward question. I haven’t misrepresented what you’ve said about it at all. The first thing I posted was that by saying “non-street workers” you changed the subject, which you did. That obviously wasn’t clear to everyone who read your post, and it needs to be. The ones you know are not representative of the plight of sex workers in toto. This is important to the thread at hand. If you had posted > [@](#): > > Prositutes can be loosely segregated into two major groups: those who choose to do it with a clear mind and the personal freedom to do so, and those who are forced into it, either literally via control by other people or figuratively via drug addiction or other impairment. earlier, and made clear that you only wanted to discuss the former group, there would have been no confusion. Everyone would have known that you were talking about something different from the thread topic. Instead you said > [@](#): > > Especially since the prostitutes that get the most scrutiny tend to be the “street level” sort, because they are the most exposed and the most often busted. Smart women with educations and options tend not to get busted or exposed, so they don’t figure as prominently in studies and research. Because for every non-street-level prostitute that a researcher can find and talk to, there are hundreds, thousands, millions that they have no idea exist at all. further muddying the waters as far as what your argument was in the first place. Because after all, if there are millions of sex workers like the ones you know, then either the majority of sex workers are doing so freely and by choice, or there are also millions of street-level prostitutes. But at that point we’re approaching levels where it’d be easier for each of us to just consult one of the several prostitutes we all knew personally. But now we’re clear. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/113 "2010-06-01T23:11:59Z")
> [@lexi](#): > > I also knew one of the most fascinating people ever by the name of Cherry Kingsley. > > She is a tireless activist against the sexual exploitation of children, and yet she also helped found Canadian National Coalition of Experiential Women and is an advocate of the rights of sex workers. She sounds great, based on that. The big problem, as demonstrated in this thread, is that most people can’t seem to grok the possibility that sex work can be everything from child rape at one end to a joyful expression of both sexual confidence and human compassion at the other, which is how my stepmother experienced it. The existence of one does not negate the existence of the other; both can exist in the same world, and most people’s experience falls somewhere along the spectrum in between. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/114 "2010-06-01T23:14:53Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Ummm… please read #1. What the hell…? Are you the OP police or something? Are you genuinely unfamiliar with the well-established experience of having a conversation, whether online or in real life, sidetrack? Seriously? That’s why I said…read #106. What I was responding to and talking about is perfectly clear. A break, please. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/115 "2010-06-01T23:23:12Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > This is really very simple. The OP asks a very straightforward question. Again with the OP police. Sidetrack… specific to what it was specifically about… perfectly clear on its own, no need for you to “clear” it up by making it into something it wasn’t. My corner of the conversation wandered a bit in a different direction. Threads do that a lot, as do RL conversations. Responding to every single remark as though it is or means to be directly connected in a straight line to exactly what the opening post asked or presented is not only less than accurate, it’s a time-waster. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968/116 "2010-06-02T00:34:53Z")
Thanks for the heads-up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-are-sex-workers-to-be-exploited/540968.md?page=5)