# How likely is it for a non-licensed person to be caught practicing law?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457>\
**Category:** Factual Questions\
**Created:** [March 31, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457 "2015-03-31T22:08:03Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\
**Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/21 "2015-04-01T15:26:47Z")

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> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Do you have to have a fund certificate even if you don’t do any trust accounting?

Yep. Every single law firm must have a trust account and every partner in a law firm must have a fidelity fund certificate. If you don’t use your trust account, you are exempted from the annual trust account audit.

(BTW, there is a division here between attorneys and advocates, analogous to the distinction between solicitors and barristers in the UK. )

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**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\
**Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/22 "2015-04-01T15:33:04Z")

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> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#):
>
> **Tipler**
> 
> There is a tendency on the part of too many _pro se_ litigants to confuse trial advocacy and insult comedy.

Based on personal experience, the same thing is true of divorce lawyers.

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**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\
**Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/23 "2015-04-01T16:03:41Z")

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> [@WilyQuixote](#):
>
> Yep. Every single law firm must have a trust account and every partner in a law firm must have a fidelity fund certificate. If you don’t use your trust account, you are exempted from the annual trust account audit.

Interesting.

> [@Scumpup](#):
>
> Based on personal experience, the same thing is true of divorce lawyers.

How many times have you been divorced?

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**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\
**Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/24 "2015-04-01T16:04:30Z")

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> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Interesting.
> 
> How many times have you been divorced?

Twice.

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**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\
**Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/25 "2015-04-01T16:45:52Z")

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> [@Princhester](#):
>
> How are you sure?
> 
> Actually at least in Qld and the Federal courts there is no routine check that I’m aware of. You could put on a suit and turn up in court and announce yourself as “Bogus, initial V, solicitor, of Bogus and Shonky lawyers, Your Honour” and you will be taken at your word.
> 
> One way or another you will probably be found out, but not through any regular systematic check.
> 
> I don’t practice in NSW but I’ve been in their courts and haven’t seen any systematic checking there either. Don’t know about other states.

In your kind of legal work, how likely would it be?

> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#):
>
> There is a tendency on the part of too many _pro se_ litigants to confuse trial advocacy and insult comedy.

> [@Scumpup](#):
>
> Based on personal experience, the same thing is true of divorce lawyers.

> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> How many times have you been divorced?

> [@Scumpup](#):
>
> Twice.

Don’t worry, third time’s a charm.

Your next divorce should be much smoother.

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**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\
**Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/26 "2015-04-01T17:06:32Z")

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> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#):
>
> [This story was just in the news](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/29/kimberly-kitchen-fake-lawyer_n_6963900.html)

Holy shit. The senior partners at her firm are going to be in a world of crap now.

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**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\
**Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/27 "2015-04-01T20:27:34Z")

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I knew a man who was hired as an attorney for a pretty major Texas city and got away with it for nearly a year before he got busted - what did him in was the requirement to put a bar number on all pleadings. The increased use of online filing and the signature requirements make it increasingly hard to get away with that sort of thing in the state, and there’s a central database of everyone currently licensed to practice. I think it would be pretty hard for a litigator to get away with for long, and you’d have to rely on none of your clients ever looking you up even if you never intended to appear in court.

Texas (and I assume other border states) do have an ongoing problem with unlicensed practice of law performed by notaries. In that case the clients don’t always understand that a notary public can’t perform legal services in the US, but they do get busted when people complain.

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**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\
**Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/28 "2015-04-01T22:53:18Z")

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> [@jezzaOZ](#):
>
> Without knowing the precise details I’m sure that before attending court a lawyer has to certify they are registered.

Why are you sure of that?

It’s not the case in my jurisdiction.

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**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\
**Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/29 "2015-04-01T23:01:18Z")

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> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Do you have to have a fund certificate even if you don’t do any trust accounting?

In my jurisdiction, all lawyers (except Crown prosecutors) have to carry insurance, through the not-for-profit insurance company run by the Law Society.

Since you can’t insure against your own criminal acts, the law society insurance doesn’t cover criminal misconduct, only negligence, errors and omissions. However, if a lawyer does steal from clients, the Law Society issues a special levy against all members of the bar to recompense the clients. That levy is separate and apart from the insurance. It is the professional duty of our bar to take the loss from a dishonest lawyer, and make whole the clients of a dishonest lawyer.

In every such case, the members of the Law Society have compensated the clients 100% of their loss.

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**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\
**Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/30 "2015-04-01T23:04:45Z")

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Getting back to the question in the OP, one if the benefits of practising in a small jurisdiction is that the lawyers know each other. For instance, if I’m appearing in QB chambers, it’s rare that I don’t recognise the other lawyers appearing in chambers, either by name or by the name of their firm. I’m sure it’s the same for the judges, who see the members of the bar on a regular basis appearing before them.

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**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\
**Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/31 "2015-04-01T23:44:42Z")

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In Suits, the protagonist _is_ a licensed lawyer. He did pass the bar, and holds the license. Sure, it was obtained under fraudulent circumstances - but, realistically, the State of New York is never going to recheck his forced law school credentials after whatever they did to check them when they administered the bar.

The reason why on Suits he’s always on the edge of getting caught is because he works for a firm that hires Harvard Law graduates exclusively, and so he is constantly surrounded by people who should have been his classmates. I bet if he claimed to be \<some random state law school with a big graduating class\>, he could get away with the fraud for decades, probably his entire career.

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**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\
**Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/32 "2015-04-01T23:45:12Z")

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> [@MichaelEmouse](#):
>
> In your kind of legal work, how likely would it be?

In my kind of work highly unlikely. My sort of work is done by established firms, or at least people who have come out of and gained experience at established firms. Those firms are going to arrange annual practicing certificates and insurance for all their lawyers and that is only going to be possible with admission details.

The scenario I outline is most plausible in those areas of the law often practiced by sole practitioners, who don’t report to anyone in the immediate sense, and who might fly below the radar for a period before someone caught on.

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**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\
**Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/33 "2015-04-01T23:48:46Z")

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> [@Princhester](#):
>
> Those firms are going to arrange annual practicing certificates and insurance for all their lawyers and that is only going to be possible with admission details.

On the TV show Suits, Mike Ross was admitted to the bar. Do these insurance companies also check for the validity of law school graduation as well? Heck, do they check undergrad? Or do you just send them a photocopy of your law license and they just assume that the licensing agency did their due diligence?

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**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\
**Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/34 "2015-04-02T00:01:36Z")

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The insurers wouldn’t check that but the law firms will check your academic record on hiring. Of course you could fake that, theoretically.

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**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\
**Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/35 "2015-04-02T00:07:20Z")

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> [@Princhester](#):
>
> The insurers wouldn’t check that but the law firms will check your academic record on hiring. Of course you could fake that, theoretically.

Our small firm didn’t check academic records or bar admissions for the last few lawyers we hired. As stated up-thread, I could check the bar’s website in a matter of minutes and verify. I probably should. They seem honest though

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**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\
**Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/36 "2015-04-02T00:18:12Z")

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> [@Procrustus](#):
>
> Our small firm didn’t check academic records or bar admissions for the last few lawyers we hired. As stated up-thread, I could check the bar’s website in a matter of minutes and verify. I probably should. **They seem honest though**

Bolding mine.

That’s the dead giveaway.

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**Author:** ![Number](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/number/32/242_2.png) [@Number](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Number)\
**Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/37 "2015-04-02T02:45:28Z")

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> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#):
>
> As a practical matter there isn’t much that can be done to these rouge insurance adjusters.

Even if they get caught red-handed?

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**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\
**Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/38 "2015-04-02T03:51:03Z")

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Frank Abagnale of Catch Me If You Can fame faked it.

\<\<While he was posing as Pan Am First Officer “Robert Black”, Abagnale forged a Harvard University law transcript, passed the Louisiana bar exam, and got a job at the Louisiana State Attorney General’s office at the age of nineteen. He told a stewardess he had briefly dated that he was also a Harvard Law School student, and she introduced him to a lawyer friend. Abagnale was told the bar needed more lawyers and was offered a chance to apply. After making a fake transcript from Harvard, he prepared himself for the compulsory exam. Despite failing twice, he claims to have passed the bar exam legitimately on the third try after eight weeks of study, because “Louisiana, at the time, allowed you to take the Bar over and over as many times as you needed. It was really a matter of eliminating what you got wrong.”[17]

In his biography, he described the premise of his legal job as a “gopher boy” who simply fetched coffee and books for his boss. However, a real Harvard graduate also worked for that attorney general, and he hounded Abagnale with questions about his tenure at Harvard. Naturally, Abagnale could not answer questions about a university he had never attended. Eight months later he resigned after learning the man was making inquiries into his background.\>\>

> **[Frank Abagnale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Abagnale)**
>
> Frank William Abagnale Jr. (/ˈæbəɡneɪl/; born April 27, 1948) is an American author and convicted felon. Abagnale targeted individuals and small businesses, yet gained notoriety in the late 1970s by claiming a diverse range of victimless workplace frauds, many of which have since been placed in doubt. In 1980, Abagnale co-wrote his autobiography, Catch Me If You Can, which built a narrative around these claimed victimless frauds. The book inspired the film of the same name di Abagnale claims to...

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**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\
**Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/39 "2015-04-02T04:07:35Z")

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> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> Getting back to the question in the OP, one if the benefits of practising in a small jurisdiction is that the lawyers know each other. For instance, if I’m appearing in QB chambers, it’s rare that I don’t recognise the other lawyers appearing in chambers, either by name or by the name of their firm. I’m sure it’s the same for the judges, who see the members of the bar on a regular basis appearing before them.

I’ll agree with this. I also practise in a small juridsiction, and when I show up to the courthouse, I know pretty much all the other lawyers, as well as the security people. The judges know me also–I see them not only in the courtroom, but I’ve also encountered them at the mall, the local coffee shop, and so on, where we’ll usually exchange a friendly greeting.

I carry a card in my wallet identifying me as a member of the bar, but I haven’t had to show it to anybody in ages. One of the benefits of practising in a small jurisdiction, I guess.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\
**Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/40 "2015-04-02T06:43:49Z")

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> [@Clothahump](#):
>
> \*\*Eight months later \*\*he resigned after learning the man was making inquiries into his background.\>

I guess it goes to show…you really can fool everyone some of the time…

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