# How likely is it for a non-licensed person to be caught practicing law? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 31, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457 "2015-03-31T22:08:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/41 "2015-04-02T06:49:18Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I’ll agree with this. I also practise in a small juridsiction, and when I show up to the courthouse, I know pretty much all the other lawyers, as well as the security people. And if a lawyer is up there talking law while I’m waiting for my matter, and I don’t recognize him/her, I’ll often nudge the lawyer beside me and whisper, “Who’s that?” It’s rare indeed that there’s someone appearing that no-one else in the room can recognize. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/42 "2015-04-02T13:20:26Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > In my jurisdiction, all lawyers (except Crown prosecutors) have to carry insurance, through the not-for-profit insurance company run by the Law Society. We do have to have malpractice insurance. We just don’t have a trust accounting insurance requirement like the one he described (I think.) My practice doesn’t require any client funds to be held in trust so we don’t have a trust account anyway. > [@Habeed](#): > > In Suits, the protagonist _is_ a licensed lawyer. He did pass the bar, and holds the license. Sure, it was obtained under fraudulent circumstances - but, realistically, the State of New York is never going to recheck his forced law school credentials after whatever they did to check them when they administered the bar. Well, that’s the thing. The State of New York checks the shit out of applicants’ law school credentials before admitting you. For example, it’s not enough (today) to just send a transcript. The dean of your law school will need to submit an individual certification for each graduate seeking bar admission. My (non-NY) bar application was 19 pages, without the reams and reams of supporting documents I had to send with it (you can get a general idea of the information you need to provide to be admitted in Florida [here](https://www.floridabarexam.org/__85257bfe0055eb2c.nsf/52286ae9ad5d845185257c07005c3fe1/240af21145e3680585257c0b007020f6).) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/43 "2015-04-02T15:40:50Z")
Our insurance covers the trust accounts as well. If you don’t have access to trust funds in your practice, you’re still required to file an annual return, making a stat declaration that you don’t handle funds. If you do handle funds, the declaration is more detailed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/44 "2015-04-02T17:08:27Z")
If you need a bar number, can’t you take one from a dead baby lawyer? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/45 "2015-04-02T17:14:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If you need a bar number, can’t you take one from a dead baby lawyer? That’s the strange part, it would be so easy to just make up a number. If someone is going to the trouble of checking someone out to see if they’re licensed, it’s just as easy to do so by name as it is by number. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/46 "2015-04-02T18:19:28Z")
this happens all the time in immigration law (in administrative practice, not usually in litigation). There is a mechanism for certain employees of certain authorized nonprofits to become accredited to represent people before immigration agencies, and it’s quite difficult - the people who manage this are at least as competent as the attorneys who specialize in immigration law. What’s more common, though, are people who take advantage of “notary” being a position that requires specialized legal education in other countries and taking money to do people’s immigration applications for them, often quite badly, and causing a world of hurt. I’ve had to undo the aftermath of a number of cases like that. Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/47 "2015-04-02T19:45:26Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > That’s the strange part, it would be so easy to just make up a number. If someone is going to the trouble of checking someone out to see if they’re licensed, it’s just as easy to do so by name as it is by number. Well, maybe. There are eight John Smiths who are barred in Florida, and that many again who once were. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/48 "2015-04-02T20:07:54Z")
As things get more computerized, I would imagine that the number would automatically be tested against a database in any online filing…etc. I guess the other question is, would two people using the same number be detected? Would you start to get the other guy’s mail if you only had a number in common? I suppose the alternative to dead baby layers is old lawyers, Harvey Greenwald, 126 years old and still practising in NY, PA and CA, much like the WWII vet who’s paying into social security while picking fruit simultaneously in Texas, California, and Florida. Or… simply kidnap a lawyer and bury him in the woods, use his number. ---
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/49 "2015-04-02T20:31:01Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > As things get more computerized, I would imagine that the number would automatically be tested against a database in any online filing…etc. I guess the other question is, would two people using the same number be detected? Would you start to get the other guy’s mail if you only had a number in common? Texas courts are phasing in mandatory electronic filing of all pleadings; the bigger counties already require it, and the smaller ones will within a few years. As a result you have to have an online account, linked to your bar number and other information, just to file anything with a court. Use someone else’s information and they’d get an e-mail copying them on the filing - and more importantly, you wouldn’t be served with your filings or the other parties’, since you wouldn’t be on the distribution list. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/50 "2015-04-02T21:03:57Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Or… simply kidnap a lawyer and bury him in the woods An excellent start. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Elemenopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5e925/32.png) [@Elemenopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elemenopy)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/51 "2015-04-04T02:41:42Z")
Just as an aside that might be interesting to some here, and apologies for not being able to find a cite, but when I lived in Phoenix, AZ in the late 90s, there was basically a paralegal program there (2-3 year program via one of the state colleges) that would allow one to represent Native Americans in court for misdemeanors, etc., as if one had a J.D. As well as advising about tribal law matters, and various civil issues like wills and property. I was seriously considering it, since it sounded fascinating and rewarding, and didn’t involve umpteen years of college and the debts associated, but I ended up moving. I don’t know if such a thing still exists, but it was explained to me as being the equivalent of being a nurse practitioner, only for N.A. legal issues. I had wondered at the time if that would allow an experienced advocate to shortcut the usual progression to becoming a lawyer, somewhat along the lines of old-school “reading law” that others have mentioned above. ---
**Author:** ![qualityleashdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/9f8e36/32.png) [@qualityleashdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qualityleashdog)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/52 "2015-04-09T04:33:48Z")
I appeared pro se in a local county Superior Court back in January. IANAL. It was the next county over, and when the time came for my case to be called, the court clerk asked me “Is your client here?” The reason that happened is that I read the court rules on the court’s website before I came, and noted that men are to appear in tie and jacket in the court…so I wear a tie and jacket. I arrived about an hour early, and watched a few different lawyers parade in and out, from about eight that I saw, only two had a tie and only one of those wore a jacket. And they looked like they were due for a haircut and shopped at the Salvation Army. I guess the point is that it doesn’t matter if you’ve never been to college, if you dress like a lawyer and conduct yourself in a way to imply that you are, people are ready to believe it. Even when it’s the court clerk, that has the petition on her screen, can see there is no counsel of record and it states the petitioner appears pro se. The judge was a retired special judge filling in from another county, I have to hope that if the regular, elected judge was on the bench that day, that he would’ve told those other bums to dress appropriately. What good is posting rules if no one enforces them? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/53 "2015-04-09T13:18:52Z")
Judges can be _very_ variable in such matters. I’ve seen county court judges toss out lawyers (and litigants) who show up in clothing that the judge deems inappropriate for his courtroom. I’ve seen lawyers show up for oral arguments before appellate courts in jeans and not raise so much as an eyebrow. Anyway, depending on your jurisdiction the rules may not be enforceable. > [@](#): > > The district court made the following findings: “Larry Kersevich was cleanly and neatly attired. He wore a sport shirt hanging over flared blue jeans . . . [He] wore shoes and, I believe socks. He did not wear a tie and jacket. Mark Stone was cleanly and neatly attired. He wore slacks with a sport shirt which was hanging over the slacks. He wore tennis shoes without socks and did not wear a tie and jacket . . . .” > > \ > > The court found that each plaintiff was neatly attired. From its description of their garments, it cannot be held that they were unsuitable, unconventional or inappropriate or that they tended to interfere with the orderly administration of justice. Peck v. Stone, 304 N.Y.S.2d 881 (App.Div. 1969). We commend the court’s desire to conduct its proceedings with propriety. We disapprove the conduct of the plaintiffs for deliberately disobeying a rule with which they could have complied without great inconvenience. However, we cannot hold on this record that their conduct constituted cause for a finding of summary contempt. Accordingly the finding of contempt and the sentence imposed are vacated. > > Kersevich v. Jaffrey, 114 N.H. 790 (N.H. 1974) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/54 "2015-04-09T13:37:16Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > I knew a man who was hired as an attorney for a pretty major Texas city and got away with it for nearly a year before he got busted - what did him in was the requirement to put a bar number on all pleadings. The increased use of online filing and the signature requirements make it increasingly hard to get away with that sort of thing in the state, and there’s a central database of everyone currently licensed to practice. I think it would be pretty hard for a litigator to get away with for long, and you’d have to rely on none of your clients ever looking you up even if you never intended to appear in court. I’d imagine it would really depend on just what aspects of law you practiced. If you’re actually talking court cases, then yeah, your charade will get figured out pretty easily. But if you’re doing less court-oriented stuff, like sending cease and desist letters, acting in a more consultative role, and helping people draft legal documents, without actually filing them (like wills and stuff), you might go a LONG time without getting caught, assuming that you’re halfway competent and don’t get complained about to the bar or law enforcement for some reason. To use a hypothetical example, my wife is a lawyer, although she’s in “inactive” status with the Texas Bar, meaning that she’s a member of the bar, but her license isn’t currently valid, and that she’ll need to pay some fees and take some continuing education to get it back into “active” status if she so desires. She could very easily help someone draft a will or write various legal documents, or even advise on litigation strategy, all of which fall under the “practice of law”, but she’d be extremely hard to catch if she didn’t advertise openly, file anything or do anything that would put her name on things. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/55 "2015-04-09T13:45:54Z")
Well, yes, transactional work is inherently less conspicuous. I don’t think sending cease-and-desist letters qualifies, though. The first thing a recipient will do is Google you. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/56 "2015-04-09T14:24:22Z")
I’m looking at a case in Germany from 2012. A former law student was given a one-year suspended sentence, he had practised law without ever having taken his examen (he suffered from severe examen anxiety). Apparently, he did a good job as an attorney and he was held in high esteem by his former clients. He was turned in by an anonymous tip giver. > **[AG Frankfurt verurteilt falschen Anwalt: Ohne Examen Jobs erschwindelt](https://www.lto.de/recht/nachrichten/n/ag-frankfurt-urteil-falscher-rechtsanwalt-verurteilt-titelmissbrauch/)** > > Mit falschen Zeugnissen hat sich ein ehemaliger Jura-Student gut bezahlte Jobs als Rechtsanwalt erschlichen. Am Montag verurteilte das AG Frankfurt den 39-Jährigen wegen Titelmissbrauchs und Urkundenfälschung zu einem Jahr Bewährungsstrafe und 2.000... ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/57 "2015-04-09T14:45:44Z")
Sort of related - recently the Supreme Court said that non dentists can do teeth whitening. They ruled that the dental board went overboard to ban it unless you were a dentist. I think there have been court cases like this about what non lawyers can do. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457/58 "2015-04-09T15:25:44Z")
That’s not quite what they said. They ruled that a professional board like the North Carolina State Board of Dental Examiners cannot prohibit non-dentists from offering those services in violation of federal antitrust law. The state government can do it; the problem was merely that the board wasn’t a part of the state government, _per se_. But yes, there have been [plenty](http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3572&context=flr) of cases about the integrated bar’s authority to regulate non-lawyers and the practice of law. As a general rule, the only truly “lawyer” work that can be done by nonlawyers is representation in administrative practice. The best example is patent law; patent lawyers must pass a test administered by the USPTO and it doesn’t matter whether they are admitted to practice law generally in a state. Congress has [specifically exempted](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/373/379/case.html) patent lawyers from state licensing requirements. The same is true of Social Security disability representation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-for-a-non-licensed-person-to-be-caught-practicing-law/716457.md?page=2)