# How likely is it that all this was created by something evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000 "2018-02-17T16:06:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/41 "2018-02-18T00:18:54Z")
> [@simster](#): > > cite? Ashes to ashes, stardust to stardust. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/42 "2018-02-18T02:55:13Z")
> [@Gottfried Leibniz](#): > > I do not believe that a world without evil, preferable in order to ours, is possible; otherwise it would have been preferred. It is necessary to believe that _ **the mixture of evil has produced the greatest possible good** _: otherwise the evil would not have been permitted Here is a related view: > [@Kahlil Gibran](#): > > Your joy is your sorrow unmasked. > And the selfsame well from which your laughter rises was oftentimes filled with your tears. > And how else can it be? > _ **The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.** _ > Is not the cup that holds your wine the very cup that was burned in the potter’s oven? > And is not the lute that soothes your spirit, the very wood that was hollowed with knives? > When you are joyous, look deep into your heart and you shall find it is only that which has given you sorrow that is giving you joy. > When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight. > > Some of you say, “Joy is greater thar sorrow,” and others say, “Nay, sorrow is the greater.” > But I say unto you, they are inseparable. > Together they come, and when one sits, alone with you at your board, remember that the other is asleep upon your bed. > > Verily you are suspended like scales between your sorrow and your joy. > Only when you are empty are you at standstill and balanced. > When the treasure-keeper lifts you to weigh his gold and his silver, needs must your joy or your sorrow rise or fall. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/43 "2018-02-18T03:10:58Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Here is a related view: It seems trivially easy to think of a possible world with less evil than ours. Just off the top of my head, how about a world identical to ours in all ways except that any time someone is about to abuse a child, or sexually assault someone, a random bystander happens to pass by and punches the offender in the face, allowing the victim to escape. Or the offender is struck with crippling nausea until the desire passes. Or that desire just happens to be as rare among humans as the desire to slowly burn one’s own skin off with fire, one inch at a time. Or a million other possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/44 "2018-02-18T03:18:46Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Here is a related view: Leibniz and Gibran have been Graped! ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/45 "2018-02-18T03:32:22Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Its off topic a bit, but I disagree. > > In any true singularity, transhuman world one of the first things we will do is transfer consciousness to a better substrate. Our consciousness is stuck inside our brains, which are very limited and prone to suffering. In a transhumanist society, we’d transfer our consciousness to either mechanical brains, engineered organic brains or VR brains which have a totally different set of cognitive and subjective experiences. > > There is no law in the universe saying my consciousness can’t be transferred to a brain (either mechanical, organic or VR) that is 100x smarter and that feels unfathomable bliss every second from now until the end of time. What you are talking about isn’t the kind of win condition I am. You’re talking about human extinction and a replacement with something new. Which is probably the “best” outcome in terms of what the universe rewards, but not necessarily what outcome we will get. I’m saying, as humans, if all 7 billion of us could work together and make the best possible future for ourselves, this is what we’d do. (we’d preserve the ones who die before we figure out a cure so we can revive them once we do) Obviously that isn’t what 99.999% of us _are_ doing, just speaking idealistically, but as far as I know, from the “rules” of the game as observed, this is the best outcome we can shoot for. And I’d like to think that even plain biological human minds, uploaded or not, would want more than an eternity of bliss. I’d still want to solve challenges, like performing violent sidequests to expand my virtual harem or deciding if I want to declare war on the Orcs or not. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/46 "2018-02-18T03:51:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It seems trivially easy to think of a possible world with less evil than ours. Just off the top of my head, how about a world identical to ours in all ways except that any time someone is about to abuse a child, or sexually assault someone, a random bystander happens to pass by and punches the offender in the face, allowing the victim to escape. In such a world there would be no child abuse, _**so how would the bystander know that (nonexistent) abuse was about to occur?**_ For that matter, do I need to cite examples of people who achieved greatness despite (_ **or because of** _) adversity? I think I’ve read someone address this by distinguishing “best possible world” from “best world possible.” I am no Christian theist and don’t intend to defend the viewpoint, _ **but it isn’t as stupid as some might make it out to be.** _ ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/47 "2018-02-18T04:03:27Z")
Maybe this is a world where all acts of interpersonal violence are instances of instinctively stopping people from performing glazeltnick. We don’t know–indeed, can’t conceive–what glazeltnick is because it has always been prevented. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/48 "2018-02-18T08:01:06Z")
Chaos (not ‘evil’ per se, but its look-alike) happens when we don’t make an effort to establish order. Humanity is somewhat of a paradox - born of chaos but seeking order. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/49 "2018-02-18T08:23:41Z")
The world we see, the apparent mixture of joy and pain, evil and good, is easily explicable if you assume no creator at all. Sure, you can shoehorn one in but the moment you do that and apply either benevolent or malevolent intent you have all you work still ahead of you to explain the contradictions of this imagined superbeing. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/50 "2018-02-18T16:19:21Z")
If you’ve ever read a novel, or seen a movie, or played a narrative-style video game, you’ve experienced a world that does have a creator. Could you tell from the nature of that world whether its creator was good or evil? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/51 "2018-02-18T19:39:04Z")
We can demonstrate mathematically that the universe wasn’t ‘created’ at all. I would be happy to walk you through it, it is surprisingly uncomplicated. But I don’t want to waste time beating my head against the wall with a zealous apologist. Let me know if you want to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/52 "2018-02-18T19:49:07Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If you’ve ever read a novel, or seen a movie, or played a narrative-style video game, you’ve experienced a world that does have a creator. Could you tell from the nature of that world whether its creator was good or evil? Those worlds are created with deliberate intent. There seems to be a dearth of evidence that this reality was created with intent. (I tend to be skeptical of the idea that this universe was in fact created at all, that the question of the beginning and end is formed in our minds which are unable to conceive of things that do not begin or end at some point.) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/53 "2018-02-19T00:36:18Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > I look at this world from the viewpoint of wisdom; I see all the death, predation, pain, disease, filth, untold amounts of completely pointless suffering and so on. So very true. Gather up all thy worldly goods (of value) and send them to me at the address I will PM you. They are just weighing down your spiritual progression, and you’ll be better off without them. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/54 "2018-02-19T00:42:16Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > So very true. > > Gather up all thy worldly goods (of value) and send them to me at the address I will PM you. **They are just weighing down your spiritual progression, and you’ll be better off without them.** You’re absolutely right about this. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/55 "2018-02-19T13:24:18Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > You’re absolutely right about this. So when are you going to dispose all your worldly assets and move to a cave? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/56 "2018-02-19T14:02:43Z")
I’m sure that whatever creator being is responsible for this universe, it has made us with benevolent intent and for a higher purpose. Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to put in some more time on my [gooble box](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ricks_Must_Be_Crazy). ---
**Author:** ![drivekiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cdc98d/32.png) [@drivekiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drivekiller)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/57 "2018-02-19T20:07:47Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > It’s our fault, it’s a fallen world!! Goddammit Eve! > > Just wanted to beat the holyrollers to that. > > Carry on. No need to refer to an origin story, or all powerful authority. In human cultures, it’s all human beings acting in their own perceived short term best interest, with incomplete knowledge, inapt beliefs and limited compassion. Yeah, that includes the crazy – just different kinds of self interest and deficits than you or I may have. As for the natural world, there may be aspects that aren’t to our liking, but ascribing a moral value is just an anthropocentric fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/58 "2018-02-19T20:17:40Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > And I’d like to think that even plain biological human minds, uploaded or not, would want more than an eternity of bliss. I’d still want to solve challenges, like performing violent sidequests to expand my virtual harem or deciding if I want to declare war on the Orcs or not. If thats what you want to do, go ahead. But given a choice between doing this and living inside a brain that doesn’t care about harems, or living inside a brain that is 1,000 better at declaring war on the orcs to the point where playing against the best human who ever lived is like playing against a 2 year old, most people will choose the latter. Our imagination is extremely limited. We have 3 lbs of matter in our brains that was designed by natural selection using limited resources, and there is virtually infinite matter in the universe that can be organized and engineered intelligently. It can be organized into an endless number of ways to act as a substrate for conscious experience (or whatever else is possible). Its like cavement from 10,000 years ago talking about what life will be like in 10,000 years and all they can talk about is how the sticks they carry would be extra sharp, and the fire in the cave would never go out, and there’d always be mammoth meat to eat. They wouldn’t imagine quantum computers, or gene therapy, or large hadron colliders. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/59 "2018-02-19T20:18:20Z")
OP is assuming the universe is created for a purpose knowable within this universe. It could just as easily be an extradimensional teaching aide for all or some of those spending a lesson/lifetime within it. You get born into it, you experience the joys and horrors available, you emerge from it with new insight. Neither good nor evil. There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here… ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/60 "2018-02-19T21:25:45Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > We can demonstrate mathematically that the universe wasn’t ‘created’ at all. I would be happy to walk you through it, it is surprisingly uncomplicated. But I don’t want to waste time beating my head against the wall with a zealous apologist. > > Let me know if you want to hear it. I am curious but skeptical. For one thing, how could you possibly tell the difference between a universe that wasn’t created and one that was created to look as though it wasn’t created? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000.md?page=4)