# How likely is it that all this was created by something evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000 "2018-02-17T16:06:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/101 "2018-02-22T06:40:37Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > More evidence would be the inherent inefficiency of nature. This suggests a design, as one would expect a mechanical process to be more efficient. As someone who has been on lots of design teams, I resent the implication that designers would create anything as kludgey as the universe. And our DNA. Our genetic code is the very epitome of spaghetti code, with hack upon hack added as things work, and with some features hijacked to be used for other things. Two examples - the blind spot in our eyes, and the famous mistake of running a sewage line through an amusement park. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/102 "2018-02-22T06:45:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > This whole thread and especially the OP is very human centric. If a god created this planet for beetles,thing aren’t so evil and sadistic. They just keep on keeping on. Getting eaten by the occasional bird is just life. There are some predators who paralyze their victims, lay eggs in them, and then the hatched eggs eat their way out of the still living victim. Kind of like Alien but not so neat. I think one of these was a factor in Darwin giving up on God. Some animals don’t have it so good. Makes perfect sense in terms of evolution. God, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/103 "2018-02-22T15:12:36Z")
The idea that an omnipotent, omniscient being would _deliberately_ create “inefficiency” makes no sense. Or are you saying God is accident-prone? The Ark story does suggest God is accident-prone (he needed a mulligan), but what do you think? What, _exactly_, is inefficient? Are you gonna point at some animal’s “design” and say it is “inefficient”? Are you denying evolution completely, or are you saying this being “made” evolution? ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/104 "2018-02-22T15:23:22Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > The idea that an omnipotent, omniscient being would _deliberately_ create “inefficiency” makes no sense. Or are you saying God is accident-prone? The Ark story does suggest God is accident-prone (he needed a mulligan), but what do you think? What, _exactly_, is inefficient? > > Are you gonna point at some animal’s “design” and say it is “inefficient”? Are you denying evolution completely, or are you saying this being “made” evolution? Nature, and evolution can best be compared to a very “special” kid banging his toys together until something works. The inefficiency suggests a design as we have every reason to believe a mechanical system would be more efficient. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/105 "2018-02-22T15:28:19Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Nature, and evolution can best be compared to a very “special” kid banging his toys together until something works. The inefficiency suggests a design as we have every reason to believe a mechanical system would be more efficient. Please, answer my questions. “Nature is retarded” does not answer my questions, and also calls into question the supposed intelligence of a creator. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/106 "2018-02-22T16:29:03Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Please, answer my questions. “Nature is retarded” does not answer my questions, and also calls into question the supposed intelligence of a creator. I don’t believe inneficiecy is an intentional part of the design. I imagine a \*general design \*with most of the process not needing any design or plan which would allow for the inneficiecy we see. Life on Earth was designed only in a general way, meaning it was intended to broadly have certain features. Every single aspect of life on Earth was not “designed” or “planned”. It’s more like a certain self-sustaining system was developed and then left to “run” by itself. Any evolutionary biologist could point out the vast inneficiecy that exists in nature. For example, predation is inherently an incredibly inneficient way for something to acquire sustenance. The fact that it not only exists but is so widespread indicates that it must have been part of some design. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/107 "2018-02-22T16:37:27Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > For example, predation is inherently an incredibly inneficient way for something to acquire sustenance. As opposed to… what, exactly? Animals evolving with skin made of solar panels? With internal internal-combustion engines? > [@](#): > > The fact that it not only exists but is so widespread indicates that it must have been part of some design. Must it have been? I await your evidence in support of this claim. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/108 "2018-02-22T17:19:29Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t believe inneficiecy is an intentional part of the design. I imagine a general design with most of the process not needing any design or plan which would allow for the inneficiecy we see. Life on Earth was designed only in a general way, meaning it was intended to broadly have certain features. Every single aspect of life on Earth was not “designed” or “planned”. It’s more like a certain self-sustaining system was developed and then left to “run” by itself. > Any evolutionary biologist could point out the vast inneficiecy that exists in nature. For example, predation is inherently an incredibly inneficient way for something to acquire sustenance. The fact that it not only exists but is so widespread indicates that it must have been part of some design. So do you believe in evolution, or not? You seem a big muddled by that. You say that not every aspect of nature was designed. Okay fine, so what _was_? Whatever you arbitrarily think necessitated a creator? IF there was a “more efficient” way, what would preclude God from just doing it that way instead? You vaguely speak of “mechanical systems”? Elaborate. What is it about God that would preclude using whatever “mechanical system” you imagine is more efficient? If he wanted all life to be efficient machines that ran on perpetual motion, and never had to deal with pesky “human problems”, do you think he could \*not \*have? Is the creator you talk about not omnipotent and omniscient? I’d really like actual answers here. Also, please cite a classically trained evolutionary biologist calling any natural process “inefficient.” Not calling BS, I’d just like to see it. That sounds like layman talk, for a laymen audience. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/109 "2018-02-22T19:51:48Z")
You know what, forget about the ‘inefficiency’ argument. It’s not a strong argument and I regret advancing it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/110 "2018-02-22T20:06:13Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > The universe nowadays, as you can tell just by looking around, especially with telescopes &etc, is composed of perhaps an infinite number of separate objects. Right? I don’t think it’s crucial to your argument that there be a literally infinite number of objects in the universe, but if there is, that’s a flaw. I don’t think it can be assumed or demonstrated that there are an infinite number of separate objects. > [@](#): > > So the universe isn’t created, it arises spontaneously because A != A. Hmmm. I’m not sure I’ve digested the argument, let alone that it fully holds up, but it seems to be saying that, by sheer logic alone, Nothing _had_ to become Something. Which reminds me of Anselm’s Ontological Argument that, by sheer logic alone, God has to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/111 "2018-02-22T20:24:40Z")
I don’t know if there are any infinite number of objects or not. I don’t think it matters either way for the point I am making. As for Anselm, well, he uses logic to show the existence of something for which there is no evidence. I use the fact of the universe as it is now, accepted theories of the big bang and logical consequences of that. Not really the same. Of course, we could all be wrong… ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/112 "2018-02-22T20:50:37Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Nature, and evolution can best be compared to a very “special” kid banging his toys together until something works. That is a terrible analogy. This sentence pretty much confirms that you don’t understand how evolution works. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/113 "2018-02-22T21:39:23Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I don’t know if there are any infinite number of objects or not. Probably not, since ∞ is a concept, not an actual number. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/114 "2018-02-23T02:37:30Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Hmmm. I’m not sure I’ve digested the argument, let alone that it fully holds up, but it seems to be saying that, by sheer logic alone, Nothing _had_ to become Something. Which reminds me of Anselm’s Ontological Argument that, by sheer logic alone, God has to exist. The state of nothingness is not stable, as we can see from the existence of the universe. Our universe might also be descended from other ones without the need of a deity. It could be universes all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/115 "2018-02-23T02:39:53Z")
Wait, is our universe pregnant? Is it going to have puppyverses? Or is it more like a mitosis kind of thing? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/116 "2018-02-23T03:02:12Z")
Universes might be asexual parthenogenes. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/117 "2018-02-23T06:39:47Z")
what if this world is some other worlds purgatory …You know you get sent here if the creator cant decide what to do with you … ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/118 "2018-02-23T07:24:17Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Wait, is our universe pregnant? Is it going to have puppyverses? Or is it more like a mitosis kind of thing? There has been plenty of speculation about singularities containing new universes, with no communication with the parent universe, of course. And I’ve seen some speculating that universes with conditions amenable to new universe formation create more, and if the natural laws within that universe are close to that of the parent universe we kind of have universe evolution going, with universes tending toward ones that produce others. And maybe these are also conditions amenable to matter and life. I like the grad student level class on universe creation as the reason for our universe myself. I hope the student got a good grade for ours. ---
**Author:** ![Hiero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Hiero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiero)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000/119 "2018-02-23T18:49:11Z")
That’s actually a really cool idea, but we’ll never know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-all-this-was-created-by-something-evil/809000.md?page=5)