It can also be a roundabout way of saying “those kids don’t have and need other role models to be present and shown”, instead of just celebrities. If all you see portrayed of your group are those things, and you don’t see other succesful models, or are taught other role models, then you don’t value the education necessary to attain other career paths (at least if you’re a young person from a disadvantage area).
Here is the fundamental problem obstructing the antiquation of race:
Different races have different outcomes for the qualification measures we use to screen job applicants. This is true in sports and the ordinary job world in particular.
Focusing on the ordinary job world, we start with academic achievement (all the way through), plus further qualification screens such as, for example, a test given to a group of firefighters to help decided who has best mastered the material thought necessary for advancement to leadership roles.
Academic achievement is the foundation. On average, better students get better opportunity for better jobs. There is a reason competition for “better schools” is stiff. A Harvard to McKinsey to CEO path is more likely than is a Rinky Dinky Community College to McKinsey to CEO path. And so on all the down the line, where a High School diploma means more than does an 8th grade diploma for a job above laborer.
Screening measures of all types (Grades; SATs/ACTs; Graduate entrance exams; employer exams) are not the be-all and end-all, but they are nevertheless widely used as a minimum bar to separate out a group from which a final decision can be made on whatever other criteria that role needs.
And that is where a very stubborn race-based gap comes in that is not eliminated by correcting for opportunity. At every given SES level, black students underperform white peers by a substantial margin. (And if you threw in “asians” as a grouping, whites and blacks would both underperform “asians.”) The screening measure differentials are so great that blacks from the highest SES score only on par with whites from the lowest SES.
To those who want to advance a cultural reason for this, I want to know what, exactly, that cultural reason is.
Give me an idea why a wealthier black family in which the parents have gained an education, and by virtue of that education risen to decent middle class status nevertheless retain a “culture” which prevents their children from taking the same path to success.
The reason colleges (for starters) need race-based AA is that their best black applicants–certainly over 75% of their black matriculants at better schools–come from middle class and higher black families. But all of those black applicants are still well behind all of the white and asian students within their economic/parental education tier. So a college wanting to compete for the best black applicants must ignore SES and simply assign a race-based AA advantage to black applicants. In short, a college must assign to the son of a black Doctor a race-based advantage because the son of white sharecropper will otherwise outcompete the black student for scores.
What “value” in the black community is creating a “culture” that disrupts performance in school? My impression is that schools are desperate to get their black students to par. The government is desperate to get black students to par. All of the community I know–of every color–would love to get black students to par. I do not think the problem is that the white community wants to promote the Easter Bunny or that black families are so busy visiting one another there is no time left to study.
As I have said before, my observation is that “culture” is more related to class and social circles than it is to color. I observe no difference among mine and my black professional colleagues in terms of how to figure out where to rank education, and while they may have their private family values while I have mine, I fail to see any fundamental differences that could be called “black” or “white” culture at all.
Except that he’s not right and I have clarified, twice, exactly what I am saying. They are not “lazy” or “stupid” simply because they don’t align with what is the dominant culture in the US.
I was talking specifically about his point that black families who have reach wage parity still underperform whites in poverty. Just because a family is well to do doesn’t mean that who they are suddenly changes and they magically become white in everything but skin color. The point of the lottery winners was an illustration of this.
I never said it was just giving people money. It is, however, giving preferential treatment based on race.
Instruction was demonstrably the wrong word. The point is that they aren’t successful in America. Why is this? Overt oppression? Subvert racism/oppression?
Now, how is AA working to address the issues that are faced?
:dubious: So, because media companies have absorbed and broadcast the music of a subculture (morphing it into a profitable enterprise along the way, by the by), that means they’ve assimilated? We’ve also absorbed things like Indian music and instruments into the pop scene of the 60s and 70s. Do you feel like we understand or have assimilated Indian culture, also? What about the Jamaican music? South African music in the 80s? We have assimilated a lot of music styles into our own, though I don’t see how this assimilates the culture it came from into our own.
Once again, it’s not about knowledge, it’s about what they focus on. I gave two simple examples, one based on my own experiences and one based on hyperbole to simplify the examination just showing how different positive primary focuses can have a different impact on education without pretending they are actively sabotaging their futures.
I’m using AA to refer to the program of racial preference and not anything else. It hasn’t appreciably influenced anything. It hasn’t brought significantly better education to those affected by it, it hasn’t helped blacks get appreciably better jobs, and it hasn’t done anything to lift that population segment from the depths of poverty as a whole.
Even proponentsof Affirmative Action say that it doesn’t disrupt things like university admissions much.
So 1.5% of opportunities were instead handed to non-whites. Three people in each set of 200. To me? That’s not effective, and it’s a waste of legislation and a misuse of resources that we could do to help them. Especially when politicians hide behind it or act like it’s a heavy influence on the progression of the needs of the black community.
I have given my thoughts on it. What are yours? Why do you believe blacks of an SES class far above the whites in poverty still score below those same impoverished whites?
Rather, you dislike the implications of what you’re saying.
That’s a fair point. I think it may just be related to other issues like the increased odds of poverty and incarceration for black people, since living around people with more money is generally a good thing.
It doesn’t address those issues. That doesn’t mean it does nothing of use, but it wasn’t intended to deal with the kinds of problems we’re talking about.
I think it reflects the fact that black culture - and not just music, of course, but fashion and so many other forms of pop culture - is pretty thoroughly assimilated into mainstream American culture. Come to think of it the entire premise of the question is absurd. If black people aren’t assimilated into American culture, doesn’t that demonstrate that they’ve been thoroughly excluded? Because for the most part we’re talking about people who have generations and generations of American ancestry.
I disagree. People can be different without automatically being deemed inferior.
Maybe, but are there stats on how much middle class blacks go to jail vs middle class whites? (Hopefully also including class of crime.)
And that’s my issue. People ardently defend AA like it’s an actually useful tool when it doesn’t address issues for contemporary society. Now, I wasn’t around for the original inceptions of the AA system and I have no idea how much it helped in the 30s-60s as it was being used for civil rights purposes. But I see it like laws from the 1800s that make it illegal to sneeze on a city street. We’ve moved on, shouldn’t our policies and laws move to something effective for the actual issues at hand? Is a 1.5% additional admissions rate to the top tiered schools really that valuable?
While I won’t comment on fashion (neon green polka dots on a dayglo orange shirt are fashionable, right? Right??) we can go through a list of what Americans have taken (and morphed) from other cultures, not just in music. I think it has more to do with how into fads we are and less to do with actually integrating/assimilating them into the culture at large.
That’s true. Historically, they were specifically excluded from white society. Until at least the 1960s, black culture was apart, as much by direct and overt racism as anything else, from the general “American culture.” While I’m certain that the differences have lessened (look, for instance, at Chief Pedant’s assertion that he has similar cultural values to his black coworkers - I don’t deny this because I can trust his senses within his sphere of activity), I’m fairly convinced that this separation hasn’t resolved in the last 50 years.
It also doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to foster their adoption and integration with the overall “American” culture. Whether they have to change or whether the American culture as a whole changes doesn’t matter. But in order for that to happen, we need to offer them, as I stated before, more than just getting a few extra blacks into this job or that university. We need to offer them everything that’s considered “culturally good” (education, opportunities, etc) that we offer other groups/cultures in this country.
Yes, they certainly can. But you say when all the differences tend to lift up one group at the expense of the other, it’s hard for the whole picture not to be disparaging. Do you really believe black people on the whole are less interested in economic advancement, education, education and health and well-being? I’m perplexed at what you think they do value highly if they’re not too interested in those things.
I’ll see what I can find. I can tell you that there aren’t all that many middle class people in jail of any race, and I can say the difference looks like it’s greater than the difference in the poverty rate.
And I’m not so sure it’s useless. You’re correct that it doesn’t address some broader problems, but … do you think there’s really a whole lot of support for making even bigger changes? From what I see, there are a great many people with a vested interest in declaring that racism is over and no longer a problem, and hoo boy do they get upset if you disagree. They’re working to dismantle a lot of civil rights legislation and cut back on programs like food stamps, and if you suggest a new program you’re going to hear the word “reparations” a lot.
If you have a proposal for something that will work better, I’m all ears.
Fads and trends and celebrities have been making their way into the mainstream from black culture for decades. To me that suggests plenty of assimilation.
Why did you criticize this as a black failure to assimilate into their own country (however that works) instead of deliberate segregation imposed upon black Americans? Somehow I failed to pick up on that earlier, but it’s actually sort of a terrible thing to say.
I’m still not convinced there is such a cultural separation. So far nobody can say what the cultural differences even are; it’s just theorized that somehow they explains problems that can’t otherwise be explained and they seem to rule out all other explanations. What does exist are social and legal and financial barriers, and no, those aren’t gone. Indeed they’re being strengthened in some ways.
Then you probably should’ve said that instead of saying black people need to change.
That sounds great. Tell me what you’re going to do, and when you try to pitch it to black people, maybe try not to sound like they aren’t fully American.
Perhaps you can first demonstrate that wealthier black families have, indeed, “risen to a decent middle class status” “by virtue of . . . education” and that they recognize that specific phenomenon.
You are assuming a premise that has not been demonstrated. I would guess that the overwhelming majority of people of all backgrounds would tend to attribute their success to “hard work,” with education figuring in at different levels for different individuals and groups.
Even among white families, your " Harvard to McKinsey to CEO" path is followed only by a tiny percentage of people. Your assumption that black families made it to an upper tier by dint of education that it would be ridiculous to presume they do not pass on to their children that value is nice speculation, but it does not actually address the issue. You place a high priority on education, per se, but I see no reason to accept your beliefs as the starting point of a discussion. Blacks who have become wealthy may not actually see education in the same way that you do.
This parallels your white kids would dominate the NBA if they had the ability argument. It demonstrates a belief you hold, without actually looking at the data. As a counter example, I offer the fact that white males have trended downward, not just in percentages, but in raw numbers, for medical school applications for a number of years. Are they turning away from that career path because they are being beaten out by women and Asian males? I would guess that various cultural phenomena have made becoming a doctor less attractive to white males without any claims that they are now less genetically suited for those careers. Without actually surveying their beliefs, I would certainly not presume that fewer white males are smart enough to become doctors (or athletic enough to join the NBA).
Less interested? No.
I gave an example of the differences between my culture and what I experienced in my black friends’ homes as a youth, family relations, and related how that can cause a disparity without them even concentrating on the fact. Are there others? I believe there are, but it’s not a heavily studied area, unfortunately. I can resort to generalizations, but they tend to focus on either race or poverty, such as if we look at stats of single-parentage (65% black, 23% white). A single parent household makes it much harder to instill educational discipline. But data as such would be far more useful if more data could be added in, such as education success (or test scores) between the two segments (two parent vs single parent) for each race.
If you have data, I would like to see it. I have looked over the last ten years and I don’t find much in the way of “AA is successful!” for…anything, really. Even the best stats I have found, like what I linked earlier, are conservative positives at best. The rest of the stuff you can find are exaggerations of data either for or against to fit a political slant.
What I said to start this whole mess. Provide all of the benefits that living in a middle class white area provide. Good schools with proper equipment and fully staffed, libraries, and other such features. I’d even be willing to pay teachers to sit in empty classrooms - wasteful, yes, but make sure those resources are available.
I didn’t criticize it as a failure of blacks. I said that we need to provide the resources and then let them chose to use them. As I stated, two wars should have showed us that we can’t dictate change to other groups. It doesn’t go over well. Thus, society needs to provide the resources and then let them use them instead of demanding that scores jump up across the board within a few shorts years, like is tended to do with programs of this nature.
I mean, even the only reason “scores” are such an issue right now is because it’s tied to funding because of NCLB, which has a a messed up funding evaluation method that is reportedly harming schools.
I disagree, only because I grew up in poverty. My neighborhood was just outside the “gang turf” and had a mix of white, hispanic, and black. There is a definite cultural difference, even among the poverty-level members of these groups. While I can only strongly state a few because of my age at the time, each had their own core set of values and each handled themselves differently.
I don’t disagree, but should we simply give up and not try and find appropriate solutions simply because some people are more interested in getting fistfuls of government dollars than in the welfare of the citizenry?
I said they need to take it upon themselves to use the resources that would have to be made available to them.
Perhaps more importantly, single parent households are more likely to fall below the poverty line. You seem pretty convinced there are differences that could have a real effect, but if you can’t say what they are in any particular way, I don’t know what to tell you. From a debate standpoint I don’t even really need to argue with you if you can’t back up your thesis.
Do you not realize how vague this is? Are you going to build new and better schools and supermarkets? Are you going to reform drug laws and change police tactics? How are you going to reshape the economy so black families (even ones that are not poor) are less likely to be surrounded by poverty? Perhaps more importantly, do you think there’s a prayer in the world you’ll get people to pay for this?
You’re right- that part you didn’t do. You said there was a failure to assimilate black culture and separately a failure to assimilate by immigrants, but those were separate and I thought they were connected.
What are the differences, and how can you use them to make generalized projections about people on a nationwide basis?
Which people are getting fistfuls of dollars again?
I already gave one and no one even talks about it. I even gave a separate example of how without even thinking one thing might connect to another it could still influence things like test scores. But no one debates that particular item, it’s just repeatedly asked what these values could possibly be.
So, I’ll list a few: a larger emphasis on togetherness, a stronger in-group requirement of familial obligations, and a harsher view of failure at studies. In most of these families I was exposed to, it was, for instance, very common to gather a few of the households together and mingle. I also often heard from more than one parent that chores came before homework. I was shocked when my friend asked for help on a harder math homework assignment and when his mother reviewed the work, snatched the paper from him, crumpled it up and threw it away saying ‘If you aren’t going to even try, don’t bother.’ That, to me at the time, was a display that was completely foreign to the white and hispanic homework-time experiences I’d had up to that point.
Now, you may make a case that this was isolated, and I could accept that. But much like my argument is largely anecdotal, so would yours be. The problem is no one really studies this sort of thing in depth. It’s all a concentration on poverty and social problems, especially related to law enforcement. While they are no less real issues, they are harder to overcome if they are not being driven, as I’ve seen repeated ad nauseum, by the poverty line. I, personally, feel that the poverty people are under exacerbates existing issues with culture and the law.
I thought it was very specific. When you go to a suburban school, you will see that they are relatively new, coinciding with the suburban flight that happened after WW2 made everyone want to build schools away from the urban cores of major cities. So, to be far more specific:
-Build new school buildings on existing grounds (build up and not out)
-Ensure access to recent technology, such as relatively recent computers. iPads/Nexuses and other such items, because they can generally be found in suburban schools
-Allow these technology resources to be available outside of school hours (a second shift for computer lab use)
-Arrange for at the very least hand-me-down desktop computers be provided for students at-home use at a certain age (I’m thinking 7th grade. But others’ thoughts may vary)
-Setup libraries to have access to the outside as well as after-school hours for studying. Setup a restocking program so that books are cycled out (another second shift)
-Class sizes no larger than 35 with a target of 25.
-Secondary equipment that is new and suitable (e.g. none of those spine-breaking connected-chair-half-desk things that schools love)
-While I have a sense of enabling access to better foods at cheaper prices, I have insufficient information on that particular slice of poverty to know what changes, specifically, to super markets would enable this. I do support ending things like the corn-for-ethanol program because all it does is squeeze the poor in their wallet sacks.
Yes. I have long been an advocate of curtailing police powers, like knockless warrants, burden of proof to get warrants being more than “this one guy said,” and ending the tactical outfitting of police departments. And ending, completely, the “War on Drugs” and replacing it with treatment, counselling, and medical coverage, such as mental health care. Also, ACA should be drowned in a bathtub and an actually useful medical health care should be implemented. That would help scads of those that are in poverty.
Honestly, I think if we could find a solution to the unemployment issues we have without going all Soylent Green, we could probably solve a lot of poverty issues. But I see this as an overall economic health issue that affects everyone, even if it does effect those without money worse than others. This part would have to be a long term, stepping approach that is coincidental with better access to educational resources as outlined above.
But, while I won’t downplay the things these programs do to the poor, they are a bit beyond the access to education that I was talking about.
I think most of this could be paid for if we started reducing, ending or collapsing programs that are redundant, dangerous, or a general waste of funds. For direct funding, I don’t expect politicians to play ball unless we give them some sort of huge incentive to do so. For getting the populous on our side…yeah. I couldn’t convince you, who I haven’t had a real disagreement with since I started this forum based on what I’ve read, that I don’t want to call an entire community lazy and/or stupid. Now let’s pretend this forum is broadcast on CNN. I’d probably be deaf from the shouting on both sides by tomorrow.
Immigrant culture creating “pockets” of a subculture that persist were an example of how the black culture could exist for a long periods of time without being automatically absorbed.
Pretty much any political argument anymore is not about what’s good for the citizenship, but what serves the interests of the politicians involved. Well, the schools are failing. CHARTER SCHOOLS! or TAKE OVER THE SCHOOLS! Either case, some political interest gets a buncha money for no real benefit to the education they claim to be fixing. War on Drugs? We should never make marijuana legal! Because we don’t benefit from it in any way, shape, or form! Or we shouldn’t get rid of civil forfeiture laws because it harms the ability of the police to police. We shouldn’t get rid of food stamps because grocery stores love it.
So, I have a belief that fundamental changes to how poverty exists in our country wouldn’t happen because there are vested interests in people not being able to fight to get their seized property back, their school dollars diverted, their food prices not raised for ethanol, and to get off welfare/SNAP. Doesn’t mean I won’t shut the hell up about it, though. 
Yeah, I’d pretty much agree with all of this.
According the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education cite I gave you earlier, all of the black students admitted to Ivy League Med Schools are there because of race-based preference. As a past Admission Commitee member for a US Med School for several years, this is my experience as well. And like every Med School I know, we were very very aggressive in doing our damndest to admit black kids who could survive the curriculum.
Because no races have similar enough average gene pools at that level of grouping to create similar results on all sorts of skillsets. We go round and round in other threads about this appalling conclusion of mine and other than to be upfront about it, I have no intention of defending it here. Go to the other threads.
I may be completely wrong about the why (and there is no dearth of Dopers who will tell you why I am wrong 
. But the “why” is completely irrelevant. What we have to deal with is the reality of what is so far an unfixable gap in what happens to “races” in real life.
The question at hand is how long before we can antiquate race. And the answer is that we cannot and should not until we we don’t need race-based preferences to drive a reasonable diversity.
As always, a clear and (almost compelling alternate viewpoint. Some day you’ll win me over.
It seems to me that you are tackling poverty, and as long you don’t use my tax dollars (or the tax dollars of my kids) for some of your ineffective performance-equalizing ideas such as getting rid of spine breaking chairs that apparently selectively damage the performance ability of poor blacks but not poor asians, that’s great.
But the issue at hand is antiquating race and the consequent antiquation of race-based AA.
I hope you have been listening to me and looking over any data you care to review that the race dilemma is that, within schools which have all the resources you and my money can bring to bear, there is a wide performance gap between blacks and whites/asians.
We need to do whatever we can to help social problems. I personally would start by getting rid of the insanely stupid “war on drugs” which has managed to destroy a couple generations of blacks just when it they started to make gains.
But…solving for poverty does not eliminate a gap in academic performance. Many states publish score and performance by race. The pattern is so persistent you don’t even need the category labels to know which groups are doing what. Check them out and see that the performance gap exists in every SES niche for schools–rich schools and poor schools.
The dilemma schools have all the way along the line is that if we lump by race, blacks are the lowest tier for performance measures, and if we don’t use race as a stand-alone criterion, there are too many poverty-stricken whites outperforming high SES blacks.
And how do you determine the black kids that would survive the curriculum? Why can you not apply the same criteria to everyone?
That was an example of “suitable.” And the problem with them is that they are expensive, space wasting, and all-but impossible to repair. And, once they do break, your spine suffers. But, sure, let’s continue to waste both your and your kids’ tax money on them.
As for the “poverty” this is simply providing the same resources in schools as are available elsewhere. While I have no objection to poverty ending policies and expanded my statements to respond to Marley23’s inquiries, that wasn’t the crux of what you quoted. Everything I listed there was about the facilities and personnel resources that they have access to growing up, which is here and now basically lacking in any area that doesn’t have a lot of tax money being funneled out of property owners into schools.
Which, as I have said, is doing nothing to actually help decrease the spread of education, outside of the few top performers. If you aren’t boosting the group, you are only rewarding what amounts to personal traits that overcome their starting situations.
Yes. It exists everywhere, which is my point about culture. So – what pervades each of those groups at all SES levels to create dissimilarities between them? There is either a biological component, e.g. some set of genes that attribute to scholastic environment that blacks lack, or there is a cultural component. If it’s biological, we currently have no way to change this. (And I’m fairly certain that, even if we could, attempting to change the genes wholesale of any group would probably be met with pitchforks and fire.) Should we just do nothing simply because we don’t have a perfect one-size-fits-all solution?
If the cultural component is true, we have ways to fix it, but they are long term.
I ask you, again: What would? What would change the gap everyone knows about?
The actual current dilemma that schools have is they are getting their funding cut because they can’t find a way to elevate the test scores of the lowest achievers. They ARE the lowest tier, but what would you recommend we do?
Ah, I see. You believe it to be a genetic component that is currently unfixable. So, we should…do nothing? What about the research that suggests the score gaps all-but disappears in black kids raised by white families?
See, I believe it is unfixable only because we concentrate on end results like “diversity” and not on giving them what they need to succeed. Diversity, as an end goal, will happen naturally if they are brought into equivalency with other groups.
I don’t how well it correlates with SES, but for white-collar crimes like fraud, embezzlement, and forgery, the substantial over-representation for blacks persists (cite - PDF).
An interesting side note - the same cite shows that blacks are under-represented in charges of DUI. Given the number of complaints about being stopped for Driving While Black, I would expect them to be arrested at least equally to other groups. A bit of Googling seems to find that 19% of blacks live in a household with no access to a car. 80% of 13% is 10.4%, which is pretty close to what the stats say. Of course, blacks are disproportionately poor, and poor households are disproportionately likely to have no car, which would push the stats a bit higher, But I wonder why blacks are hugely over-represented in some crime categories, and slightly or not at all in others.
Regards,
Shodan
Because, in the case of Ivy League medical schools, if you apply the same criteria to blacks as to whites, no blacks would get in. If you apply the same criteria to whites as to blacks, you have an enormous number of better-qualified whites (and Asians) who don’t get admitted in favor of less-qualified blacks.
The problem being that simply increasing funding for public schools does not eliminate the black vs. white achievement gap.
Regards,
Shodan
Shodan: Black people are less likely to drink alcohol than whites, which could explain it.