Good call, Randy. And ice can be harsh. I’d call that a good upper boundary for casual numbers.
You’re not using this show as a cite with a straight face, are you?
What happens in a ship fire as water is dumped into a upper hold it can not pass quickly to the lower and lower lower hold. It is the weight of the water in the higher hold that causes a ship to capsize. As water is pumped into the upper hold counter flooding needs to be done to keep the metabolic center low. I have seen pictures of ships that have been hit by a sub. The cargo ship is so full of water that the crew steped off the ship into the water and the ship went down on a fairly even and did not capsize. Cargo ships do not have the compartmentizatrion like a war ship.
Just making an observation. And while it’s just a show, they do at least cursory research for each episode, so, while I wouldn’t place any large wagers on their modeling, I wouldn’t say it’s complete fantasy either. The episode with the ships went into a lot of detail concerning ships that were in permanent docks vs free floating ships, and I thought their analysis on the warships in dock was at least a good ball park estimate.
We are talking about a ship that is moored to a dock here, and presumably in a harbor. I agree that there will come a tipping point where eventually water seepage is going to cause the boat to capsize, but I doubt it’s going to happen very fast. I think stability is going to be less an issue with a ship that is tied up than one under way…and a ship in permanent dock is going to be even less likely to capsize (though it might settle, depending on how deep the berth is).
Sure…I agree. I also agree with you that it wouldn’t take that much to destabilize a ship. So, it would depend on exactly how and where water is seeping in, and how the ship was moored…which is to say, that how long a ship lasts would depend on a host of factors. Some ships may capsize relatively quickly, some may not. I think a modern ship COULD remain afloat without any maintenance for decades, depending on conditions…though I base that on having observed ‘modern’ ships that were permanently moored and then abandoned having lasted for decades, plus my time in the Navy and after, having seen ships that were moored and then left to quietly rust away (or seeing the reserve fleet, which actually is maintained, though not all that much, in some of the cases I’ve seen).
-XT
I’m sure that’s possible in an older vessel but few modern vessels have more than one cargo deck. Bulkies and container vessels don’t. Some general purpose vessels do, but even when they do, the tween decks aren’t even close to water tight: they are just designed to give two layers onto which large breakbulk items can be loaded and there are gaps easily sufficient for a large volume to flow through between pontoons.
**xtisme **your assertions are noted but apart from them being your assertions, do you have any actual experience in this field or any reasoning to back it up? Do you follow my explanation about it not mattering one bit whether the vessel is at sea or in a dock? Can you balance a pin on its point?
True. But I have a list of all marine accidents in all Harbours and ports of Pakistan dating from around 1810. Don’t see that. And the list has some amazing cockups.
Rain water is designed to run off into the sea- correct? How is that done? Could debris clog those channels, then what? Birds could nest on that ship, which would bring clogging nesting material.
That list would be interesting. Do you have a link. I may well recognise the name if I can review the list.
I tried sending you a PM with an email address to enable you to send the list as an attachment but you seem to have PM’s turned off.
I am not entirely certain it was Pakistan. I had the feeling it was in your region though. It could have been Bangladesh or just maybe India.
Its a hard copy printout. I will try to find a softcopy when I get back to the office tommorrow.
On the issue, would not be surprised if the report says “destroyed by fire and sunk”.
I have a tangential question: how often do large seagoing vessels, whether cargo or military, spring leaks, especially in mechanical areas? I would think that fighting small leaks would be an ongoing challenge in this arena.
My experience as a carwash operator is that any time you have an array of pumps, lots of seals, motors, piping, solenoids and a high volume of water, something invariably is almost always leaking, some leaks being more critical to operations than others, of course.
Not the conditions outlined in the OP, but my first boat has had an odd history.
As far as I can tell, it has not received any serious hull maintenance since its 1981 lay-up. (In fact, when it was surveyed in Chicago, the hull was deemed compromised, although I notice that they still sent it up to Wisconsin for one more refit before the economy tanked. The Coast Guard requires a hull survey every five years to keep certification and I cannot now find the story on the compromised hull, but I have seen no indication that any work was done between 1981 and 2008.)
It was built in 1959, and when I sailed aboard in 1971, it had already sunk twice. (The old man like to run the rivers fast, and he kept scraping bottom and tearing holes in the hull. Of course, sinking a boat in a 28’ deep river is not as damaging as letting it sink in mid lake or ocean.)
Currently, it holds the odd record of having actually spent more time laid up (29 years) than in active service (22 years). Google Maps is using an image from 2007 or 2008 for Lake Calumet, south of Chicago, when the Sherwin was still tied up at the grain elevators next to Butler Dr. 41° 40’ 3.50" N 87° 35’ 23" W
Back groud Third Assistant Engineer Steam and Motor Vessels any Horse Power.
Engineering classes in statics and dynmatics. Classes dealing with damage control. Safety classes dealing real live cases. Also history buff in the past reading about ship wrecks and Naval battles and the damage to ships. Been land locked for more years than I care to admit. C4 Mariners were the new ships when I got my ticket.
If a ship is unstable you are right about it being unstable at a dock. Question the amount of water that you are claiming it takes to make a ship unstable.
And yes you can ballance a pin on a point if the center of mass is low enough.
If the scupper drains became blocked the rain water would not build up high enough to go over the cargo hatch or a door hatch into the interior spaces it would go over the side and down the side.
In an operating ship yes water does get into the bilges. On a steam ship from opening drains on a piece of equipment while bring it on line. Pumps with packing at the shafts should drip while running. The engine room bilge may get pumped once a day or once a watch, maybe 1 to 15 gallons. Cargo area bilges seldom get pumped. Shaft alley bilge bilges do get pumped but not regulary. And there are times when equipment is worked on and water leaks into a bilge. Also there are some ships out there that have major problems that are not being repaired and then the pumps may have to be run more often.
I wasn’t questioning your background, I know you know what you are talking about, I was querying xtisme
I’ve never said how much, other than surprisingly little. I know the amout required is substantial, but it tends to be a lot less than people think it would be.
OK