# How long have commercial jets had 'Auto-land' **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 23, 2001, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405 "2001-09-23T22:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/1 "2001-09-23T22:33:38Z")
Given recent events this has been mentioned a lot. I’m not a pilot but an aviation enthusiast (whatever that means) and, um, did I miss something? Isn’t the ability for a commercial airliner to land itself a **huge** accomplishment? Doesn’t it require pretty powerful computing power (like maybe “a neural-net processor, a learning computer”)? Wasn’t there any fanfare or press when this was put into operation? And when are they used? Pilots still always land manually, even in bad weather, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/2 "2001-09-24T01:35:00Z")
Dunno, but evidently the space shuttle has it, too. [http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/reference/shutref/events/entry/](http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/reference/shutref/events/entry/) ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/3 "2001-09-24T01:46:44Z")
This is almost Snopes material, so I don’t vouch for it, but a pilot for the Australian airline Ansett (which went broke last week, BTW), told my father “strictly off the record” that after testing a new Airbus, the airline sent a letter to the manufacturer saying, “The plane performed very well. The only criticism we have is that the “auto-land” feature gave a quite bumpy landing.” They recieved a reply from Airbus saying, “Thank you for sharing your concerns, but the aircraft in question is NOT FITTED with an Auto-Land function”. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/4 "2001-09-24T03:04:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheLoadedDog \* > \*\*This is almost Snopes material, so I don’t vouch for it, but a pilot for the Australian airline Ansett (which went broke last week, BTW), told my father “strictly off the record” that after testing a new Airbus, the airline sent a letter to the manufacturer saying, “The plane performed very well. The only criticism we have is that the “auto-land” feature gave a quite bumpy landing.” > > They recieved a reply from Airbus saying, “Thank you for sharing your concerns, but the aircraft in question is NOT FITTED with an Auto-Land function”. > :eek: \*\* This anecdote is entirely untrue. A pilot of a commercial airliner knows by heart every single control, ability, and nuance of the machine he flies. And autoland is not like there is a toggle switch on the dash with a post-it saying “Autoland” - it is programmed into the onboard computer, and requires a bit of setup to use. Plus the fact that trying to let a plane land on its own sans autoland would almost certainly result in death for all involved. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/5 "2001-09-24T03:29:19Z")
Yeah, but it’s a great old joke. There used to be a book of these floating around that would get repeated at every flying-club bull session over and over again. They were usually presented as ‘true but funny maintenance log entries’. Like this: Entry: Auto-land on this aircraft very rough. Engineering Fix: Auto-land not installed on this aircraft. Entry: Right Engine Missing. Fix: Looked under wing. Found Right Engine. Entry: Engine Rough when mag switched to left only. Fix: Don’t switch mag to left only. And so it goes. There are dozens of 'em. Lots of fun to repeat at Beer Call after a long day of trying to keep students from killing you in the airplane. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/6 "2001-09-24T04:16:38Z")
For Sam. [humor hijack] [http://www.leicestershireaeroclub.com/fun.htm](http://www.leicestershireaeroclub.com/fun.htm) [/humor hijack] [sub]goes back to work looking for “auto-land” on Google getting awfully tired of looking at used car websites[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/7 "2001-09-24T04:17:52Z")
[sub]Sam: scroll down 3/4 the page.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/8 "2001-09-24T04:32:55Z")
[http://www.shareholder.com/rok/redesign/news/19991005-11199.cfm?t=g](http://www.shareholder.com/rok/redesign/news/19991005-11199.cfm?t=g) > [@](#): > > Rockwell Collins provided the first digital flight control system for Boeing onboard the 757 and 767 family of airplanes. Today, Rockwell Collins also supplies digital flight control systems for the Boeing 747-400 and 777 family of airplanes. > > Using the digital flight control systems on Boeing airplanes, pilots can engage the system shortly after takeoff and automatically fly the airplanes on pre-selected routes, headings, speed or altitude maneuvers. At airports equipped for Category IIIb landings, the system can safely fly the airplane through the landing approach to touchdown and rollout during very poor visibility conditions. > **[Virtual Analyst Hubs - Defense Daily](https://www.defensedaily.com/hubs/)** > > Virtual Analyst Hubs > [@](#): > > Airlines are moving slower, more cautiously than the bizjet community in acquiring EVS. One reason is that the new autoland systems in airliners combined with HUD are allowing low-visibility landings with 700 feet runway visual range (RVR). Well, I can’t find a date for when jets started using autoland, but it seems to be fairly recent. [http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs410/afs410.htm](http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs410/afs410.htm) > [@](#): > > A status list of facilities which meet the criteria for lower than standard CAT I and CAT II operations is included in Appendix 4 of this Order. This list included two sections. Section 1 lists airports/runways eligible for Heads-Up Guidance System (HGS) and autoland operations down to 1800 RVR. Section 2 lists airports/runways eligible for HGS and autoland CAT II operations. Autoland only works at certain airports–it’s not totally automatic, “let the computer fly the plane”. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/9 "2001-09-24T04:44:22Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t “autoland” require special equipment on the ground so that the plane can determine how close it is to the proper glidepath by picking up signals from ground transmitters near the runway? Sorta like the “autodrive” function that only works in the HOV lanes on I-5 near Burbank (or somewhere like that) because they’ve embedded transponders in the road. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/10 "2001-09-24T04:44:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hail Ants \* > **Isn’t the ability for a commercial airliner to land itself a huge accomplishment? Doesn’t it require pretty powerful computing power (like maybe “a neural-net processor, a learning computer”)?** Not really. An ILS approach is all numbers and computers love numbers. The computer knows exactly how high above the ground it is by following the glideslope and watching the radar altimeter. The localizer tells the computer exactly how far it is off track the plane is from the runway centerline, the DME tells it how far away the runway is. Airspeed, engine output are all digitized. Computers and airplanes work well together, it is much more difficult to get a computer to drive a car. > [@](#): > > \*\*And when are they used? Pilots still always land manually, even in bad weather, don’t they? \*\* A full auto-land (Catagory IIIc ILS, decision height is zero) is usually only used when visibility is very near zero. Pilots don’t like to land under those conditions since once they do land they can’t find their way around on the ground. There are other occasions where an airliner will use the autopilot to fly lower than is allowed for planes that don’t have an autopilot (200 ft usually), but the pilots will still actually land the plane manually. These are Catagory II, IIIa, and IIIb ILS’s. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/11 "2001-09-24T04:49:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > **Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t “autoland” require special equipment on the ground so that the plane can determine how close it is to the proper glidepath by picking up signals from ground transmitters near the runway?** Yes, the auto-landing can only be done on runways that have an ILS (instrument landing system). This is made up of two radar beams, one horizontal and one vertical. From these beams the instruments on the airplane can tell how many degrees off it is from the proper flight path. [Probably more than you ever wanted to know about ILS’s](http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/ILS.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/12 "2001-09-24T04:52:18Z")
DDG: Thanks for that. I just did a brief search and found a similar page. I’m going to reprint the list because I’m pretty sure there is no copyright on it. It’s just a bunch of collected items that I’ve seen reprinted everywhere: Problem: “Something loose in cockpit.” Solution: “Something tightened in cockpit.” Problem: “Evidence of hydraulic leak on right main landing gear.” Solution: “Evidence removed.” Problem: “Number three engine missing.” Solution: “Engine found on right wing after brief search.” Problem: “DME volume unbelievably loud.” Solution: “Volume set to more believable level.” Problem: Dead bugs on windshield. Solution: Live bugs on order. Problem: Autopilot in altitude hold mode produces a 200 fpm descent. Solution: Cannot reproduce problem on ground. Problem: IFF inoperative. Solution: IFF inoperative in OFF mode. Problem: Friction locks cause throttle levers to stick. Solution: That’s what they’re there for. Problem: “Left inside main tire almost needs replacement.” Solution: “Almost replaced left inside main tire.” Problem: “Test flight OK, except autoland very rough.” Solution: “Autoland not installed on this aircraft.” Problem #1: “#2 Propeller seeping prop fluid.” Solution #1: “#2 Propeller seepage normal.” Problem #2: “#1,#3, and #4 propellers lack normal seepage.” Problem: “The autopilot doesn’t.” Signed off: “IT DOES NOW.” ---
**Author:** ![Trenchmouth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Trenchmouth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trenchmouth)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/13 "2001-09-24T05:02:07Z")
\<\<\\>\> The only barometer I have is that it must have happened sometime between the movies AIRPLANE and TURBULENCE (where the auto-land is a crucial plot device). ---
**Author:** ![mikew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@mikew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikew)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/14 "2001-09-24T11:39:31Z")
I thought the first airliner to test full Cat III autoland was a BAC Trident back in the sixties (1967?). ---
**Author:** ![demanton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@demanton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/demanton)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/15 "2001-09-24T14:29:04Z")
When googling around late last night trying to find a definate answer for this one, I found some information about the BAC Trident autoland systems from the mid sixties, but the link was outdated and I have no cite to present here. Apparently, the [Lockheed L-1011](http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art05.html) was the first commercial airliner to be outfitted at the factory with the Category IIIa autoland, and was the first equipped with the 0 RVR, 0 DH Category IIIc autoland. Since the Tri-Star debuted in 1970, it seems that the technology had been progressing for several years before that. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/16 "2001-09-24T18:43:02Z")
Back in July 1971 ,on a British Airways ( or it could have then been BOAC) 747 flight from JFK to London I remember the captain saying, as we were coming into Heathrow, " ladies and gentleman I shall just sit here with my arms folded while the plane lands itself". ---
**Author:** ![winky99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/71c47a/32.png) [@winky99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/winky99)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-commercial-jets-had-auto-land/83405/17 "2001-10-09T13:30:24Z")
In the onslaught of coverage and special reports from the media over the last month, I seem to remember seeing a report saying that LAX was the only airport equipped to land planes on approach sans pilot intervention. The caveat to this being the plane had to be in LAX airspace to be able to do it. Not sure of the validity of this, I think I saw it on CNN.