# How long have people kept knickknacks? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 20, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418 "2023-03-20T21:46:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/21 "2023-03-21T15:47:45Z")
Agreed. Personal ornamentation is right out. Given how even animals are observed collecting useless crap, I think it might be hard-wired. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/7PbQRMVXOqU/maxresdefault.jpg "Colin Mochrie [nick nack paddy wack]") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PbQRMVXOqU) ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/22 "2023-03-21T15:51:18Z")
Even with modern artifacts, it is difficult for even professionals in the field to differentiate between a knickknack and a tchotchke. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/23 "2023-03-21T15:52:22Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > I’m not much clearer on the definition of a knickknack as I am of a paddywhack. It seems like we are defining a knickknack by what it’s _not_; not what it is. If it’s just cheap art, then even a cave drawing qualifies. Also, i think “paddywhack” is related to an older use of the word “knickknack” > **[Knick-knack - Etymology, Origin & Meaning](https://www.etymonline.com/word/knick-knack)** > > "a pleasing trifle, toy," 1570s, a reduplication of knack (n.) "ingenious device, toy,… See origin and meaning of knick-knack. # knick-knack (n.) also knickknack, nicknack, “a pleasing trifle, toy,” 1570s, a reduplication of knack (n.) “ingenious device, toy, trinket” (1530s), a specialized sense of [knack](https://www.etymonline.com/word/knack?ref=etymonline_crossreference#etymonline_v_1902) (n.) “stratagem, trick.” ### Entries linking to _knick-knack_ [knack (n.)](https://www.etymonline.com/word/knack#etymonline_v_1902) mid-14c., “a deception, trick, device,” a word of uncertain origin. Perhaps from or related to a Low German word meaning “a sharp sounding blow” (compare Middle English knak, late 14c.; German knacken “to crack;” also [knap](https://www.etymonline.com/word/knap?ref=etymonline_crossreference)) and of imitative origin. Sense of “special skill” (in some specified activity) is first recorded 1580s, if this is in fact the same word. In old slang (mid-18c. to mid-19c.) nacky meant “full of knacks; ingenious, dexterous.” For pronunciation, see [kn-](https://www.etymonline.com/word/kn-?ref=etymonline_crossreference). ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/24 "2023-03-21T15:53:33Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > it is difficult for even professionals in the field to differentiate between a knickknack and a tchotchke. But gewgaws are their own thing, right? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/25 "2023-03-21T16:04:53Z")
Don’t geegaws fall under the “personal ornamentation” exception? Or am I thinking of something different? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/26 "2023-03-21T16:18:13Z")
This thread reminds me that a replica of a seashell carved in stone was found in Europe dating back possibly to Neanderthals. Although found in central Europe, it wouldn’t be that difficult to carry a shell from the coast inland, but someone felt the need to carve a replica out of stone. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/27 "2023-03-21T17:20:06Z")
I think it’s a projection of our modern easy-going values into very different worlds to think the Löwenmensch or other similar artefacts were carved just for the fun of it, or to be toys etc. The people responsible for producing them were Ice Age hunter-gatherers living in an animistic world, where religious beliefs penetrated every facet of life and communication with the spirits of animals, weather, ancestors etc. was of utmost importance. Carving striking images in ivory with simple stone tools was not a small job. Hard-to-work but durable-for-it materials were used here. Toys or knick knacks would have been likely made from much easier, more perishable materials such as twigwork, skin offcuts, reed etc. Archaeologists are often criticized for offering “ritual item” type explanations for mute artefacts from the distant past. But the peoples making these artefacts were awash in ritual behavior and ritual thinking. Human and animal images, or human-animal images as it were, had profound meaning, being seen essential for negotiating with the spirit world for survival and cosmic balance. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/28 "2023-03-21T17:27:50Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > The people responsible for producing them were Ice Age hunter-gatherers living in an animistic world, where religious beliefs penetrated every facet of life and communication with the spirits of animals, weather, ancestors etc. was of utmost importance. How do we know this? > [@Toxylon](#): > > But the peoples making these artefacts were awash in ritual behavior and ritual thinking. Or this? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/29 "2023-03-21T17:33:44Z")
Or they could have seen real seashells in stone deep inland and copied those. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/30 "2023-03-21T17:35:41Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > where religious beliefs penetrated every facet of life and communication with the spirits of animals, weather, ancestors etc. was of utmost importance. And you know this how, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/31 "2023-03-21T17:43:38Z")
This was a spiral shell in remarkable detail. Clam shells and the like embedded in stone are rather common. Even though this one was small and likely a type with a delicate shell it’s not out of the question that it was based on something embedded in stone. I think it more likely the stone copy was durable while the actual shells were less likely to have survived long as a trinket and that may have made a copy of a shell more valuable than the original. But I doubt there’s a way to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/32 "2023-03-21T17:46:12Z")
We know this from what we know about hunter-gatherers of historic times, off a global sample. These cultures exhibit massive differences in their lifeways, yet striking similarities as well, when it comes to religious and spiritual concepts and behavior. The widespread links and continuum between the religion of, say, Siberian hunter-gatherers of c. AD 1900, and the religion of Stone Age cultures of Northern Eurasia is not exactly a contested issue among scholars in archaeology and comparative religious studies. There is no exact knowledge here, obviously. But to submit that “we just don’t know” is not true, either. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/33 "2023-03-21T17:51:52Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > We know this from what we know about hunter-gatherers of historic times So, projecting? ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/34 "2023-03-21T17:58:56Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I think it more likely the stone copy was durable while the actual shells were less likely to have survived long as a trinket and that may have made a copy of a shell more valuable than the original. Or…prehistoric counterfeiters. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/35 "2023-03-21T18:03:23Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > So, projecting? It’s called utilizing ethnographic analogies, a basic tool of archaeological interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/36 "2023-03-21T18:19:25Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > The people responsible for producing them were Ice Age hunter-gatherers living in an animistic world, where religious beliefs penetrated every facet of life and communication with the spirits of animals, weather, ancestors etc. was of utmost importance. Archaeologists do believe this was true, and have no good reason to believe that modern-day hunter-gatherers were wildly different from early humans in that regard. Archaeologists also believe that humans today value toys, crafts, beauty, and fun just for pure enjoyment, and have no good reason to believe that ancient peoples were wildly different from modern humans in that regard. I see no good reason to believe that the two statements are mutually exclusive. Humans can exhibit both traits and many more. That complexity is buried very deep into the timeline. Some aspects of it are found in other classes of animals, so they must predate hominids, but the layers and layers of possible ways of looking at the world are a quantitative difference that turned into a qualitative difference. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/37 "2023-03-21T18:21:56Z")
I’m not even precisely clear on why modern humans keep knickknacks, let alone people who lived in the previous 1000 centuries. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/38 "2023-03-21T19:25:32Z")
Ivory is hard to carve. Someone had a lot of free time if they carved ivory figurines just for fun. But… Maybe someone was bored over a long winter or something. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/39 "2023-03-21T19:26:29Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Archaeologists do believe this was true, and have no good reason to believe that modern-day hunter-gatherers were wildly different from early humans in that regard. “Early humans” is a dangerously vague term here. We have no way of knowing what the religious ideas of early humans were, hundreds of thousands of years ago. Talking about the Venus figurines, the LionMan etc., we are dealing with things that were made relatively recently, by modern humans that had already experienced “the Great Leap Forward”, and exhibited the same complex behavior (as seen in the archaeo record) as recent hunter-gatherers. Note that no-one has claimed Stone Age cultures didn’t have toys, beautiful things, ornamentation, playing and free time. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418/40 "2023-03-21T20:03:44Z")
You have 23 odds and ends on a table. 22 of them fall off. What do you have left, an odd or an end? —George Carlin [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-have-people-kept-knickknacks/981418.md?page=3)