# How long lasted pilot training during WWII? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 28, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051 "2017-02-28T18:30:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/1 "2017-02-28T18:30:18Z")
I was reading the wikipedia article about German ace [Erich Hartmann](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann), which details his training. It took him two years of training between the moment he joined the airforce and the moment when he was first assigned to a combat position. And he was already a licensed civilian pilot when he joined. This seems incredible to me. I can’t imagine that, say, the USA, could afford to spend two years training pilots before they would be able to fly the thousands of aircrafts that were produced. If it had been the case, they would barely have been ready for the very last months of the war. So, how long typically lasted pilot training during this conflict? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/2 "2017-02-28T18:45:28Z")
Before WWII, pilots trained for about a year. In 1940, this was reduced to 7 months. From 1942 onward it was increased to one week of preliminary training, then four training periods of 9 weeks each, for a total of about 8 1/2 months. More info here: [Aviation Cadet Training Program (USAAF) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_Cadet_Training_Program_(USAAF)) ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/3 "2017-02-28T18:56:24Z")
It should also be noted that U.S. pilots were rotated out after a certain amount of time in combat. German pilots didn’t have this luxury. While the German pilots may have spent more time training, they also served for a much longer time. The longer service time combined with a generally higher level of experience contributed to the higher number of kills among German aces compared to U.S. aces. Also, prior to 1942, German fighter pilots typically received about 13 months of training. Bomber and reconnaissance pilots received about 20 months of training. After 1942, training programs were streamlined and shortened. By 1944, German pilots were getting about half of the training time as their British or U.S. counterparts. More info here: > **[Pilot Training of the Luftwaffe](https://www.ww2-weapons.com/pilot-training-of-the-luftwaffe/)** > > Pilot Training of the German Air Force in the Secomd World War (Part I). Pilot Training of the Luftwaffe before 1942. Pilot Training of the Luftwaffe before 1942 The period of training given to new ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/4 "2017-02-28T19:07:32Z")
Well, that 2 years was probably more than just flight training. Based on what I know of Wehrmacht training, people had to enlist and serve for some period before being selected for officer training, which took time in its own right. In modern-day terms, all officers had to enlist, then go to OCS. So you probably had some period of basic training, some period of enlisted service, officer schooling, then various sorts of flight schooling (which they may have passed him out of the early stages, considering he was a pilot going in), and then probably some sort of air combat schooling (dogfighting, etc…) . Just being trained as a pilot probably wasn’t the entire time he mentions. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/5 "2017-02-28T19:07:57Z")
At times, pilots barely knew how to fly, and were then sent into combat in a completely different airframe in what they had learned. And then this: _“According to the AAF Statistical Digest, in less than four years (December 1941- August 1945), the US Army Air Forces lost 14,903 pilots, aircrew and assorted personnel plus 13,873 airplanes — inside the continental United States. They were the result of 52,651 aircraft accidents (6,039 involving fatalities) in 45 months.”_ [http://www.wwiifoundation.org/students/wwii-aircraft-facts/](http://www.wwiifoundation.org/students/wwii-aircraft-facts/) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/6 "2017-02-28T19:45:54Z")
My uncle was killed in pilot training in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/7 "2017-02-28T20:07:34Z")
My grandfather flew in Bomber Command and had a lot of friends killed, but remembered as many killed by training accidents as by Germans. Even after entering operational status, they trained a LOT. Between missions they weren’t sitting around. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/8 "2017-02-28T20:24:39Z")
Which was why they sent a lot of people to learn to fly in Canada, and southern Africa, and in the USA under commercial contract. Plenty of space and sunshine. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/9 "2017-02-28T21:15:08Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Which was why they sent a lot of people to learn to fly in Canada, and southern Africa, and in the USA under commercial contract. Plenty of space and sunshine. Yep… there are actually[some CWGC graves in Terrell, Texas](http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2073191/TERRELL%20(OAKLAND)%20MEMORIAL%20PARK) for that very reason. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/10 "2017-02-28T22:29:34Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > At times, pilots barely knew how to fly, and were then sent into combat in a completely different airframe in what they had learned. And then this: > > _“According to the AAF Statistical Digest, in less than four years (December 1941- August 1945), the US Army Air Forces lost 14,903 pilots, aircrew and assorted personnel plus 13,873 airplanes — inside the continental United States. They were the result of 52,651 aircraft accidents (6,039 involving fatalities) in 45 months.”_ > > [http://www.wwiifoundation.org/students/wwii-aircraft-facts/](http://www.wwiifoundation.org/students/wwii-aircraft-facts/) Not just inexperienced pilots, and not just in wartime. _The Right Stuff_ starts off with a chapter about Navy test pilots in the 1950s. Those pilots had something like a 25% chance of dying in an accident. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/11 "2017-02-28T22:33:33Z")
By contrast to American (and other Allied) practice, the Japanese had very rigorous and lengthy training for pilots, washing out a very high percentage of aspiring flyers. The result was that they experienced a critical shortage of pilots due to losses in action, the remaining experienced pilots were heavily overworked and they eventually had to drastically shorten training (but it was too late to alleviate the pilot shortage). ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/12 "2017-02-28T23:33:30Z")
US Bomber crews in Europe got to go home to the US after 25 missions. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/13 "2017-02-28T23:50:34Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > US Bomber crews in Europe got to go home to the US after 25 missions. How many of them lived through twenty five missions? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/14 "2017-03-01T00:21:13Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > How many of them lived through twenty five missions? About 25 percent, according to “Strategic Bombing by the United States in World War II: The Myths and the Facts” By Stewart Halsey Ross. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/15 "2017-03-01T01:32:37Z")
some of the 75% of US crews who did not make it to 25 were able to bail out and were sent to POW camps. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/16 "2017-03-01T02:37:34Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > About 25 percent, according to “Strategic Bombing by the United States in World War II: The Myths and the Facts” By Stewart Halsey Ross. Everything I’ve read (and I’ve read a lot!) has said that early on (1942-1943) the 25 mission mark was set because that was the 50/50 point- half of the crewmen would make 25 missions, and 25 would not. Now whether an entire crew makes it through unscathed, that seems much more unlikely than even 25%. Later in 1944, the USAAF raised the cap to 35 missions, as the aerial opposition by the Luftwaffe had drastically diminished as a result of the 8th AF basically using the heavies as bait to draw up the German fighters and destroy them. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/17 "2017-03-01T02:53:38Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Everything I’ve read (and I’ve read a lot!) has said that early on (1942-1943) the 25 mission mark was set because that was the 50/50 point- half of the crewmen would make 25 missions, and 25 would not. That’s damn cold. See Len Deighton’s book, _Bomber_. I wonder if we could win a world war now days. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/18 "2017-03-01T04:18:48Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > By contrast to American (and other Allied) practice, the Japanese had very rigorous and lengthy training for pilots, washing out a very high percentage of aspiring flyers. > > The result was that they experienced a critical shortage of pilots due to losses in action, the remaining experienced pilots were heavily overworked and they eventually had to drastically shorten training (but it was too late to alleviate the pilot shortage). [From here](http://www.historynet.com/japans-fatally-flawed-air-forces-in-world-war-ii-2.htm). > [@](#): > > By the end of 1943, the army and navy had lost about 10,000 pilots. As American Lt. Gen. George C. Kenney reported to Washington, “Japan’s originally highly trained crews were superb but they are dead.” When matched to pilot production of 5,400 army and 5,000 navy in the same period, and when one considers the expansion in units, missions, tempo and geographical separation, it is clear that Japan’s pilot strength had not increased at all. Worse, the vast majority of prewar and even 1942-43 veterans were dead or wounded, and their replacements had none of the veterans’ experience. By 1944, the Japanese had lost most of their experienced pilots and their planes were not qualitatively as well as quantitatively inferior the the US counterparts, and add that to the gap in pilot ability then it [become a massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Philippine_Sea). > [@](#): > > Aboard the Lexington afterward, a pilot was heard to remark “Hell, this is like an old-time turkey shoot!”[31] > > Including the continued aerial slaughter over Orote Field, Japanese losses exceeded 350 planes on the first day of battle. American losses were relatively light, with about thirty planes being lost. Damage to American ships was minimal, and even the damaged South Dakota was able to remain in formation to continue her anti-aircraft duties. > > Most of the Japanese pilots who successfully evaded the U.S. fighter screens were the small number of seasoned veterans who had survived the six-month Japanese advance early in the Pacific war, the Battle of Midway, and the Guadalcanal campaign. Germany had the [same problem](http://ww2-weapons.com/pilot-training-mid-and-late-war/). > [@](#): > > By the beginning of 1944 German fighter pilots were joining their operational units with only about 160 hours flying training; this compared with more than double that figure for their counterparts in the RAF and the USAAF. > > During the first half of 1944 the Luftwaffe day fighter units suffered debilitating losses at the hands of the better-trained American escort fighter pilots, whose P-51 Mustangs could in any case out-perform the best fighters the Germans then had in service at this time; during this period the home-defence units lost some 2,000 pilots killed, missing or wounded. > > When the Luftwaffe training organization tried to make good these heavy casualties with similar numbers of new pilots, the result was a vicious circle: the ill-trained replacement fighter pilots were no match for their opponents and suffered heavy losses, and their places in the front line were taken by new pilots who had had a more hurried training and were even less of a match for their opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/19 "2017-03-01T14:55:35Z")
Note that at the start of WWII, it was typical to take four years or more to train an American pilot too, as most of them had to be officers. After the start of WWII, officer training and college programs were heavily abbreviated, allowing a cadet to graduate and commission as a Second Lieutenant after only two years of training (this happened to Robin Olds while he was at Westpoint). I don’t recall if they typically did job-specific training while they were in ROTC or the Academies (aside from pilots, you’d have all sorts of other specialities), but I know flying isn’t quite like falling off of a bicycle, it takes a good bit of practice and time to get through the program, as it is a very easy way to get yourself killed quickly if you do something wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051/20 "2017-03-01T15:21:49Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > It should also be noted that U.S. pilots were rotated out after a certain amount of time in combat. German pilots didn’t have this luxury. While the German pilots may have spent more time training, they also served for a much longer time. It wasn’t just luxury though - veteran US pilots were brought back to train other US pilots, which increased the overall quality of pilots even if it didn’t lead to extremely high kill counts. This combined with other limits on the Luftwaffe meant that the US tended to have a lot of good pilots, while Germany had a few super aces but a lower average skill level overall. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-lasted-pilot-training-during-wwii/781051.md?page=2)