# How long till I can buy a simulated universe in a box? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 12, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318 "2002-04-12T21:00:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/21 "2002-04-13T19:32:11Z")
Now we are talking. > [@](#): > > 10^18= rough age of universe in seconds > 10^43 = number of Planck time units in a second > 10^160= number of particles in the universe, squared > > Multiply them together … 10^221 calculations … bigger than a googol … . How many calculations are computers able to do a second now? Let’s shoot for the computer being able to compute the whole history of a universe in an hour. How long, assuming moore’s law, until we can do enough calculations per second to make 10^221 calculations in an hour? DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![Aestivalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Aestivalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aestivalis)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/22 "2002-04-13T19:38:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > \*\*So then how can computers work with numbers greater than the amount of particles it takes to make that computer? How can they add subtract and divide huge numbers together if those numbers are larger than the amount of particles contained therein? > > Couldn’t a computer multiply the 2 numbers in **rsa** ’s post by each other and give us an answer? The computer could do this without having that many particles in it. > > DaLovin’ Dj \*\* They don’t. A computer with 8 bytes of memory will not be able to calculate and store in memory any number larger than 2^64. What we’re saying is that a computer wouldn’t even be able to run a simulation of its own particles, much less that of the entire universe, without some loss of information. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/23 "2002-04-13T19:43:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > \*\*Now we are talking.How many calculations are computers able to do a second now? Let’s shoot for the computer being able to compute the whole history of a universe in an hour. How long, assuming moore’s law, until we can do enough calculations per second to make 10^221 calculations in an hour? > \*\* I’ve got a one gigahertz PC, so let’s say today’s computers can do roughly 10^9 calculations per second. (Yes, I know that’s a gross simplification of how instructions are related to clock speed but it gives me a round number to start with.) That’s roughly 4 \* 10^12 calculations per hour. Let’s be generous and say 10^13. Moore’s Law says processor speeds double every 18 months. That works out to increasing by a factor of ten every 5 years or so. 10^221 / 10^13 = 10^208 208 \* 5 = 1040 years So … you can expect SimUniverse to hit the stores in time for Christmas 3042 … . ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/24 "2002-04-13T19:47:08Z")
> [@](#): > > So … you can expect SimUniverse to hit the stores in time for Christmas 3042 … . I guess I’ll need to put off my plans for universal domination and destruction for a millenia then. Hmmm. . . what do do with an extra thousand years? Thanks. This was fun. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/25 "2002-04-13T19:49:45Z")
Just for the calculating (not considering storage or moving data), I get about **3 X 10[sup]205[/sup] hours** assuming a very powerful current computer. I used 1 trillion operations per second. Someone else will have to help you figure out how many doublings in power to get the result in one hour. On preview, I see that you’ve got your answer, but I’ll post this as an estimate of how much time would be required using existing technology. ---
**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/26 "2002-04-13T20:58:59Z")
**dalovindj** , here’s a simple way to realize that a computer will never have enough memory to store all that data. Imagine that we want to model a system with 10 particles. Assume a very simple model which only accounts for position, velocity and mass. This means that for each particle, we have to store x,y,z,direction,speed,mass. That’s 6 numbers to keep track of for each particle, and each of those numbers is really made up of some number of bits of information. So an extremely simple model of 10 particles which have 32-bit values for all their properties (which is far too small, by the way – they really need to be arbitrary-length numbers) is going to take 1920 bits of memory to store. Since each bit is going to be at least one atom, modeling a 10 particle system requires 1920 particles of memory alone. Which comes back to what **Aestivalis** said: a computer can’t even hold a complete model of it’s _own_ particles, let alone all of those in the universe. ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/27 "2002-04-13T21:02:25Z")
We just store the data in extra dimensions. Should be easy with a mass hyper resonator. But should we? DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![Stinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@Stinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stinky)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/28 "2002-04-13T22:33:22Z")
Assumeing Moore’s Law holds computing power will soon hit an exponetial curve to infinity. today=2Ghz +1 1/2 yrs =4Ghz,8 ,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8220,16440, 32880, 65760,131520,263040,526080,1052160,2104320,4208640… and this is just for the next 30 yrs. But we still will never have the universe in a box because we can never know the location and speed of any partical due to the uncertainty principal. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/29 "2002-04-13T22:48:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > \*\*We just store the data in extra dimensions. Should be easy with a mass hyper resonator. But should we? > > DaLovin’ Dj \*\* Assuming that those extra dimensions are part of this universe, then we have to model them too; no win. ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/30 "2002-04-13T23:30:30Z")
The extra dimensions can be represented instead of enumerated in the simulation. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/31 "2002-04-13T23:39:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > \*\*The extra dimensions can be represented instead of enumerated in the simulation. > > DaLovin’ Dj \*\* Sure, as long as we can be sure that they don’t interact with our universe. Here’s a simulation of the universe for you: ```auto ***Particles=10^160*** ``` It’s not a _working_ simulation and admittedly it’s not even very detailed; I have had to omit all of the enumeration, but you must admit, it’s fairly compact; would you like to buy it? ---
**Author:** ![Stinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@Stinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stinky)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/32 "2002-04-13T23:41:16Z")
How can you represent something in a computer model with out enumerating it. Everything in a computer sim is numbers. ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/33 "2002-04-13T23:46:18Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not a working simulation and admittedly it’s not even very detailed; I have had to omit all of the enumeration, but you must admit, it’s fairly compact; would you like to buy it? Nah, I’ll wait for the interactive version. The one where I can watch the individual lives of all my subjects. I’ll set the universe up so they can’t tell if I’m real or not, and then give them a book that says they’ll burn forever if they don’t meet my list of demands. I’ll then set the parameters so they are unable to resist temptation and burn em all. It’ll be fun. > [@](#): > > How can you represent something in a computer model with out enumerating it. Everything in a computer sim is numbers. From earlier in the thread: > [@](#): > > Because the amout of storage required to _represent_ a number is much less than the amount required to _enumerate_ it. For example, I can write one million with seven symbols: 1000000. Seven is much less than one million. I can perform all sorts of operations on the number one million with only a few more symbols: 1000000 \* 1000000 = 1000000000000. But if I want to _enumerate_ one million – to actually identify each individual number between one and one million – then I have to use _more_ than one million symbols to do it. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/34 "2002-04-13T23:54:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > **Nah, I’ll wait for the interactive version. The one where I can watch the individual lives of all my subjects. I’ll set the universe up so they can’t tell if I’m real or not, and then give them a book that says they’ll burn forever if they don’t meet my list of demands. I’ll then set the parameters so they are unable to resist temptation and burn em all. It’ll be fun.** RickJay must be proud of you. ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/35 "2002-04-14T00:16:24Z")
What’s a RickJay? 😕 DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![soop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@soop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soop)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/36 "2002-04-14T01:46:20Z")
But wait a second… How do you know WE aren’t living in a SIMULATION??? Forget making a SimVerse. You could already be IN one! ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/37 "2002-04-14T02:28:28Z")
> [@](#): > > How do you know WE aren’t living in a SIMULATION??? Indeed. How do you know “god” isn’t just a kid with a video game system or universe like aquarium. Here is a quote from Robert Sawyer’s fictional book “Calculating God”: > [@](#): > > God was the programmer. The laws of physics were the application, running now for 13.9 billion years, leading up to this moment. I’ll let you read the book if you want to know what happened that moment. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/38 "2002-04-14T21:20:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by soop \* > \*\*But wait a second… > > How do you know WE aren’t living in a SIMULATION??? > > Forget making a SimVerse. You could already be IN one! \*\* [I’ve wondered about that before.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=81435&highlight=simulated+universe) RickJay is a member of this forum who, I believe described the tactic of taking potshots at religion (although I think it only applies in threads that start out as religious debates, so forget I said it). ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/39 "2002-04-14T22:21:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by soop \* > \*\*But wait a second… > > How do you know WE aren’t living in a SIMULATION??? > \*\* We are. It’s all in Plato. “Bless me, what do they teach them in schools these days?” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318/40 "2002-04-14T23:01:41Z")
This is the time where the comp weenie (me) gets to jump in and point out that a model of the entire universe would have to include in it a model of the computer which holds the model of the entire universe, which in turn would have to contain a model of the entire universe, which has a computer in it… This is what we like to call the mother of all circular references. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-till-i-can-buy-a-simulated-universe-in-a-box/103318.md?page=3)