# How long until electric cars become cost-competitve with gasoline? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 24, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555 "2016-05-24T16:34:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/61 "2016-05-28T18:19:56Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Read the link. The Tesla heats (or cools) the batteries for optimal performance. No, the Tesla _cools_ the batteries. During discharge, they already produce enough waste heat that all they have to do is stop cooling them or cool them less. They have to heat them for charging in cold weather, or to warm them up for driving, but they do not have to heat them while tooling down the road. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/62 "2016-05-28T18:21:27Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Range is a big problem for the EV. While the vast majority of trips are short, a major chunk of the population takes one or more long trips in a year. So how long does it take for recharging to go 600 miles in one day? Tesla has fast charging stations all over the US. They can charge to 80% of capacity in 40 minutes. Granted that is longer than the time to pump a tank full of gas, but it is enough time to stop for lunch somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/63 "2016-05-28T18:47:59Z")
One concept that is very interesting is a [membrane-less flow battery](http://www.kurzweilai.net/new-rechargeable-flow-battery-enables-cheaper-large-scale-energy-storage). The battery itself is not very large: it is merely a reaction chamber for the fluids that generate the electricity. The fluids are pumped through the battery (making it a tad more complex than a brick that produces power) to generate electricity, and the process is electrically reversible (the battery can be “recharged” at home). This offers the basic advantage of the electric car, the volumetric power density of the described design is an order of magnitude better than Li-ion, and, in theory, recharging on the road could be about as fast as a simple fluid-swap. The biggest downside to described design is that one of the reactants is hydrogen, which is a royal bitch to manage, the other is bromine, which is somewhat nasty if you leak it, and the end product is hydrobromic acid, which is kind of nasty stuff as well. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/64 "2016-05-28T19:57:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Ca3799** : > > They say it will get 22 miles in EV mode, which will get most people to where they are going, and is equal to 120 MPGe. And even if it doesn’t get you where you’re going, that’s still a huge advantage. If your commute is, say, 40 miles between charging points, then you’re still going more than half the way just on the battery, and thus using less than half as much gasoline. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/65 "2016-05-29T15:13:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And even if it doesn’t get you where you’re going, that’s still a huge advantage. If your commute is, say, 40 miles between charging points, then you’re still going more than half the way just on the battery, and thus using less than half as much gasoline. yeah, a plug-in hybrid would work for me; that range will get me to work where we have accessible charging stations. well, in theory, anyway; once they put in the charging stations all of the management got PHEVs for their lease cars and the stations are always occupied. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/66 "2016-05-30T01:16:02Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > yeah, a plug-in hybrid would work for me; that range will get me to work where we have accessible charging stations. > > well, in theory, anyway; once they put in the charging stations all of the management got PHEVs for their lease cars and the stations are always occupied. I was thinking of doing just that when I return, but sadly no PHEVs are on the current order list, so it looks like a giant, full-sized, gas-hogging SUV is probably in my future. :eek: There are a lot of rules for the charging stations. If you notice anyone abusing one, report it to Land and they’re supposed to be able to get it sorted out. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/67 "2016-05-30T03:55:52Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > the whole point of hybrids is to improve economy by shutting off the gas engine in cases were it would be operating least economically. e.g. what good is an idling gas engine doing sitting there burning fuel just to keep itself spinning? none, so shut it off at stops. Recapture some of the energy lost via braking to help get the car moving. etc. > … My 2014 BMW (gas engine) will shut itself off rather than idle, at stops in traffic. Take your foot off the brake, or try to twist the wheel, and the engine restarts. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/68 "2016-05-30T04:10:41Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > My 2014 BMW (gas engine) will shut itself off rather than idle, at stops in traffic. Take your foot off the brake, or try to twist the wheel, and the engine restarts. I have a friend with a 2015 3-series that does that–and it’s a manual (the engine starts when you push in the clutch). It’s a little disconcerting; you wonder if you stalled it or something coming to a stop. But it seems to work. That said, hybrids still have an advantage in this department. ICEs aren’t very efficient, but you can do a little better if you are willing to give up power density and/or a broad power band. As such, if you have an electric motor that can give you a boost while accelerating, you can made do with a smaller ICE with a more efficient thermodynamic cycle, such as the Atkinson cycle. The Prius and several other hybrid models use this technique (as mentioned above by **Stranger** ). The ideal for a “strong hybrid” would probably be a Stirling cycle engine running at a nearly fixed power level, and cycling on long (tens of minutes) intervals. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/69 "2016-05-30T04:55:59Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > My 2014 BMW (gas engine) will shut itself off rather than idle, at stops in traffic. Take your foot off the brake, or try to twist the wheel, and the engine restarts. Doesn’t this wear out the starter? Or have they replaced the starter with something else? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/70 "2016-05-30T05:55:49Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > Doesn’t this wear out the starter? Or have they replaced the starter with something else? Some makers use an integrated starter-generator that combines the functions of both units into a single, robust, inline unit. BMW apparently doesn’t do this, and instead has just beefed up the starter to withstand the extra starts. I can say that it doesn’t seem to have the whine of a usual starter, so the gearing or something about it is different, but I couldn’t say what exactly. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/71 "2016-05-30T10:05:22Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > There are a lot of rules for the charging stations. If you notice anyone abusing one, report it to Land and they’re supposed to be able to get it sorted out. Not worth the effort. There are a ton of people who regularly park where they shouldn’t (e.g. In test rows) and you can report them until you’re blue in the face yet nothing changes. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Some makers use an integrated starter-generator that combines the functions of both units into a single, robust, inline unit. BMW apparently doesn’t do this, and instead has just beefed up the starter to withstand the extra starts. I can say that it doesn’t seem to have the whine of a usual starter, so the gearing or something about it is different, but I couldn’t say what exactly. It’s part “beefed up starter” and part “lower duty cycle.” On a regular start- e.g. one where you’ve just got in the car and turned the key/pushed the button, the PCM is awakened and has to see the engine crank through at least two full revolutions of the engine before it will enable the fuel injectors. It has to make sure it knows the position of the crankshaft and camshaft. On an auto stop/start event, it does not have to wait for this synchronization since the PCM never went to sleep and more or less knows where the cam and crank were when the engine shut off. It only has to crank long enough for a cylinder to fire. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/72 "2016-05-30T17:15:00Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > Not worth the effort. There are a ton of people who regularly park where they shouldn’t (e.g. In test rows) and you can report them until you’re blue in the face yet nothing changes. > > It’s part “beefed up starter” and part “lower duty cycle.” On a regular start- e.g. one where you’ve just got in the car and turned the key/pushed the button, the PCM is awakened and has to see the engine crank through at least two full revolutions of the engine before it will enable the fuel injectors. It has to make sure it knows the position of the crankshaft and camshaft. > On an auto stop/start event, it does not have to wait for this synchronization since the PCM never went to sleep and more or less knows where the cam and crank were when the engine shut off. It only has to crank long enough for a cylinder to fire. Even from cold, it starts almost immediately when requested, as does my wife’s Camry Hybrid engine. I attribute this to good fuel injection technology. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/73 "2016-05-30T18:10:59Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Electricity is something like 75 cents for the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline. > > Assuming you spend 2500 a year on gasoline, that is close to 17k in savings over 10 years. Assuming a car lasts 20 years on average (that is about the right number, that means almost 34k in savings assuming gas in the mid $2 range ($2.50 per gallon vs. $0.75 for an equivalent of electricity). However if the battery needs replacing that could add to it. But at the same time, fewer mechanical parts in the electric car. > > So in conclusion, I don’t know. However fuel costs should be 50-80% lower in the electric car. 48% of the cost of gas is tax. That still has to be paid if we transitioned to electric cars. It will require a significant upgrade to our electrical grid so that will be added to the bill. And no battery pack will last for 20 years so there is at least one complete replacement. The short term savings before all that happens will be as you stated. ---
**Author:** ![iljitsch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/77aa72/32.png) [@iljitsch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iljitsch)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/74 "2016-05-30T18:35:32Z")
Even if switching to electric cars doesn’t save us a single dime it’s still worth it because electric cars don’t pump poison into the air where people live. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/75 "2016-05-30T18:39:40Z")
Question: How well do electric vehicles do in severe cold? Can the batteries freeze? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/76 "2016-05-30T18:47:00Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Even from cold, it starts almost immediately when requested, as does my wife’s Camry Hybrid engine. I attribute this to good fuel injection technology. You didn’t specify what model, but I looked up a couple of youtube vids for BMW stop/start, and it definitely cranks longer for a "cold’ start than an auto start. your Camry Hybrid uses one of the motor/generators in the transaxle to start the gas engine; and as it’s a pretty powerful motor the engine fires up nearly instantly. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/77 "2016-05-30T18:53:13Z")
> [@iljitsch](#): > > Even if switching to electric cars doesn’t save us a single dime it’s still worth it because electric cars don’t pump poison into the air where people live. Very few people live next to a hydroelectric plant. The vast majority of people rely on fossil fuels for their electrical needs. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/78 "2016-05-30T19:01:04Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > On an auto stop/start event, it does not have to wait for this synchronization since the PCM never went to sleep and more or less knows where the cam and crank were when the engine shut off. It only has to crank long enough for a cylinder to fire. Shouldn’t be long at all. If I’m thinking through it correctly, even on an I4, you should have to crank through at most 180 degrees to get a compressed charge at TDC. Less for a 6-cylinder. If they were really clever about it, they’d ensure the engine always stopped in a position where you don’t have to crank it at all; just enable the ignition system. In fact I think you could always get away with this on a V-8; you’ll always have a cylinder with fuel charge \<90 degrees past TDC. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/79 "2016-05-30T19:54:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 48% of the cost of gas is tax. 48% of the _price_ of gas may be tax, but the actual overall _cost_ of gas is much higher than the price of it. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555/80 "2016-05-30T20:49:30Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Shouldn’t be long at all. If I’m thinking through it correctly, even on an I4, you should have to crank through at most 180 degrees to get a compressed charge at TDC. Less for a 6-cylinder. > > If they were really clever about it, they’d ensure the engine always stopped in a position where you don’t have to crank it at all; just enable the ignition system. In fact I think you could always get away with this on a V-8; you’ll always have a cylinder with fuel charge \<90 degrees past TDC. Mazda was working on such a system. I don’t know if it’s on market yet. edit: here it is: [http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/i-stop/](http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/i-stop/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-until-electric-cars-become-cost-competitve-with-gasoline/755555.md?page=5)