# How long will politicians be able to milk 9/11 for political capital? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309 "2006-02-06T22:43:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/21 "2006-02-08T04:24:20Z")
> [@](#): > > From a pure political perspective, it will last in direct proportion to the Liberals/Progressives desire to play to their base with the “attack on civil liberties” argument > [@Cisco](#): > > Can you re-word that? Because I can’t decipher what you’re trying to say. I think what he meant was pretty easy to decipher. Liberals emphasize fear about attacks on civil liberties out of all proportion to the actual danger–but they accuse Bush of emphasizing fear of 9/11 out of all proportion to the actual danger. One poster referrred to Pearl Harbor as an example of how long memories last. But I think a better example is McCathyism. Like Pearl Harbor, it is ancient history, based on an enemy who no longer exists. But for the OP, it seems likely to raise its head anew. So maybe we could rephrase the OP–“how long will politicians be able to milk McCarthyism for political capital”? We can live with a few terror attacks, and we can live with the Patriot Act. So far, the balance has been about right. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/22 "2006-02-08T04:36:45Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Liberals emphasize fear about attacks on civil liberties out of all proportion to the actual danger– [Ruby Ridge](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge) [Waco](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidian#BATF_raid_and_siege) ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/23 "2006-02-08T04:44:24Z")
I think they could still have some traction with the Lusitania business if they tried, and that wasn’t even our boat. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/24 "2006-02-08T11:51:45Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Gee. Which party keeps dragging up 9/11 and terror? Which party uses 9/11 to justify things like spying on American citizens, Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, arrest and detainment without the niceties of a trial? Which party ties every statement of discontent or dissatisfaction to “helping the terrorists”? Which party kept issuing “terror alerts” just before the last election? Which president keeps invoking 9/11 and the War On Terror (the war president???) as a reason to be the Unitary Exec who can do whatever he pleases? Hell, for that matter, which party even HAS a base to play to, whether it’s the stay at home war heroes or the antigay/anti everything extreme right religious guys? Last time I bothered to look, it wasn’t the liberals/progressives jamming “The War On Everyone” down our throats all the time. > > “A state of war is not a blank check for the president” That would be the Republican party. Now which party is it that is trying to mine Move-On dollars by emphasising “torture”, “wire-tapping” outing “covert” operatives, blocking SCOTUS nominees for being out of the “mainstream” etc etc? That was my point … as long as you folks push left… us folks will be able to push right. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/25 "2006-02-08T14:07:13Z")
> [@What the .... ?!?!](#): > > That would be the Republican party. > > Now which party is it that is trying to mine Move-On dollars by emphasising “torture”, “wire-tapping” outing “covert” operatives, blocking SCOTUS nominees for being out of the “mainstream” etc etc? > > That was my point … as long as you folks push left… us folks will be able to push right. If there is torture happening, then the lefites and Move On (and McCain) are right to keep it out in public view. If there is illegal wiretapping, the Dems and Repubs who are against it are right to demand investigations. If Libby or Rove or Rice did out a covert agent, then others are right to call them on it. If a SCOTUS nominee was rejected by the Repub far right “base”, then that has nothing to do with anyone else… Alito and Roberts were confirmed, after some political postuirng and grandstanding. That othe one was done in by her own party. So, it isn’t the left that pushed at all. Now the right i ushing again - Rove’s threat to blaklist his own party members if they oppose the president on the wiretap issue. So really. Who is doing the pushing?? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/26 "2006-02-08T14:13:23Z")
They’ll be able to milk it as long as the supply of morons doesn’t run dry. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/27 "2006-02-08T14:24:03Z")
I hadn’t realized that civil liberties and respecting basic human rights were necessarily leftist positions. However, if the right wants, they are welcome to run on the pro-torture, anti-freedom platform. Just one question. Will the trains at least run on time? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/28 "2006-02-08T15:05:19Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > If there is torture happening, then the lefites and Move On (and McCain) are right to keep it out in public view. > If there is illegal wiretapping, the Dems and Repubs who are against it are right to demand investigations. > If Libby or Rove or Rice did out a covert agent, then others are right to call them on it. > If a SCOTUS nominee was rejected by the Repub far right “base”, then that has nothing to do with anyone else… Alito and Roberts were confirmed, after some political postuirng and grandstanding. That othe one was done in by her own party. > So, it isn’t the left that pushed at all. Now the right i ushing again - Rove’s threat to blaklist his own party members if they oppose the president on the wiretap issue. So really. Who is doing the pushing?? You had me going with the four “ifs”… then all of a sudden your opinion/caveats turned into established fact. Keep pushing !!! ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/29 "2006-02-08T15:09:53Z")
> [@Walter Windchill](#): > > I hadn’t realized that civil liberties and respecting basic human rights were necessarily leftist positions. However, if the right wants, they are welcome to run on the pro-torture, anti-freedom platform. Just one question. Will the trains at least run on time? And the torture and executions will continue until _everyone_ loves our Benevolent Leader! **Steve,** I don’t think that it’s the fact that the “left” raises the issues you mention (and I’m not willing to concede that it’s just the “left;” plenty of “traditional conservatives” are just as alarmed), but the cries of “Doom! DOOM!” that accompany them. J. Average American can seriously empathize with the 9/11 attacks, because of the “that could’ve been me” factor, whereas with the torture, imprisonment, and wiretappings, I think that J.Average American is reasonably comfortable with the notion that “they’re only doing it to someone else.” They either have faith that the government isn’t abusing their power, or they feel comfortable living in a certain state of denial. As long as it’s just done against those “brown people who proclaim a certain religion.” Until (I think it’s just a matter of time) it is revealed that non-Muslim, non-brown skinned Caucasoids are being widely spyed upon and “detained indefinitely” under the mandate of National Security, the “left” (and traditional conservatives) will NOT gain mainstream traction in elevating those issues. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/30 "2006-02-08T21:01:31Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Until (I think it’s just a matter of time) it is revealed that non-Muslim, non-brown skinned Caucasoids are being widely spyed upon and “detained indefinitely” under the mandate of National Security, the “left” (and traditional conservatives) will NOT gain mainstream traction in elevating those issues. Lemme guess, you’re part of the “non-Muslim, non-brown skinned Caucasoid” group, ain’cha? Which reduces this argument to “Hey, as long as it doesn’t inconvenience _me,_ go right ahead!” ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/31 "2006-02-08T21:18:49Z")
> [@What the .... ?!?!](#): > > You had me going with the four “ifs”… then all of a sudden your opinion/caveats turned into established fact. Keep pushing !!! Miers was shot down by The base - the more right wing factions of the Republican party. The Dems didn’t have to lift a finger against her. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/32 "2006-02-08T21:22:12Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > And the torture and executions will continue until _everyone_ loves our Benevolent Leader! > > **Steve,** I don’t think that it’s the fact that the “left” raises the issues you mention (and I’m not willing to concede that it’s just the “left;” plenty of “traditional conservatives” are just as alarmed), but the cries of “Doom! DOOM!” that accompany them. To paraphrase very loosely, relying on memory … The terrorists are coming! We’re all like doomed and stuff! Voter for us or we’re all gonna die! They hate us for our (fill in the blanks)! Run away! Run away! 😃 BOTH sides do it. That’s a simple fact. But, to risk equivalency, is it fair play to call one side on it and not the other (not that either side would ever stop)? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/33 "2006-02-08T22:33:54Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Miers was shot down by The base - the more right wing factions of the Republican party. The Dems didn’t have to lift a finger against her. And your point is…? Incidently that was the highlight of 2005 !! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/34 "2006-02-08T22:36:56Z")
> [@What the .... ?!?!](#): > > You had me going with the four “ifs”… then all of a sudden your opinion/caveats turned into established fact. Keep pushing !!! :dubious: No, **What,** it’s your turn now. Explain why, if torture is happening, the Dems are **wrong** to keep it in public view, etc. [crickets chirp] ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/35 "2006-02-08T22:48:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: No, **What,** it’s your turn now. Explain why, if torture is happening, the Dems are **wrong** to keep it in public view, etc. > > [crickets chirp] I don’t hear any crickets … My point was his “Ifs” turned into “facts”. My point is that many good people look at your so-called “torture” and compare it to completely innocent people getting their heads cut off and are happy to have the “torture” continue if the people fighting this war deem it neccesary. We get a kick out of blow hards like Teddy Kennedy standing up for the poor terrorists! Keep pushing !!! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/36 "2006-02-08T23:00:56Z")
> [@What the .... ?!?!](#): > > My point is that many good people look at your so-called “torture” and compare it to completely innocent people getting their heads cut off and are happy to have the “torture” continue if the people fighting this war deem it neccesary. I see. Then they’re not really “good people,” are they? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/37 "2006-02-08T23:39:27Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Lemme guess, you’re part of the “non-Muslim, non-brown skinned Caucasoid” group, ain’cha? Which reduces this argument to “Hey, as long as it doesn’t inconvenience _me,_ go right ahead!” I didn’t say it was my position; how you got that I don’t know. :dubious: But it is one I understand. For most Americans, until it directly happens to them or someone they know personally, the situation is Somebody Else’s Problem. It’s just a problem of social visibility, and an Us vs. Them mentality. From our (American) POV, we were minding our business until one day, a buncha terrorists drove some airplanes into our buildings. It was happening to US, live and in color. All the bad stuff that came after (Abu Ghraib, Domestic Surveillance, Indefinite Incarceration, etc.) is just words on the news, happening to someone else, usually half-a-world away, and happening to people “linked” to terrorism by our government, whom most Americans still trust is Doing The Right Thing (the odd stumble notwithstanding). Like I said, it ain’t my position, and I don’t agree with it. But I do understand it. The problem with the two sides of the situation **Steve** is again one of social visibility. 9/11 was an in-your-face, impossible to ignore kinda thing. All the heinous shit Benevolent Leader is doing in the name of The War on Terror are individually little, insidious things (taken as a whole, though, they are pretty alarming to anyone who’s awake and paying attention). For Americans, anyone selling something with 9/11 written all over it is going to be miles ahead of someone selling something with “Domestic Surveillance Erodes Liberty” ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/38 "2006-02-09T00:08:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I see. Then they’re not really “good people,” are they? So to be a good person I have to agree with your definition of “torture” ? What are the other requirements? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/39 "2006-02-09T00:09:59Z")
> [@What the .... ?!?!](#): > > So to be a good person I have to agree with your definition of “torture” ? Call what (little) we’ve seen out of Abu Ghraib “torture,” call it something else – no good person would tolerate it, and certainly not for the reasons you’ve given. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309/40 "2006-02-09T00:22:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Call what (little) we’ve seen out of Abu Ghraib “torture,” call it something else – no good person would tolerate it, and certainly not for the reasons you’ve given. Even if those reasons had any relevance. Which they don’t. This shit does **nothing** to stop terrorism or the insurgency. Quite the reverse. And certainly nobody who accepts the Alberto Gonzalez definition – “it’s not torture unless it’s equivalent to major organ failure” – **for operational purposes** could possibly be a good person. Argue it as a semantic point all you like, but when it comes to defining what will and won’t be allowed, that’s an utterly indefensible position. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-politicians-be-able-to-milk-9-11-for-political-capital/343309.md?page=3)