# How long will republicans play chicken with the economy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873 "2011-06-26T01:25:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/21 "2011-07-06T01:58:47Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Couldn’t you just as easily ask how long Democrats are going to play chicken with the economy? It takes two to play chicken. > > The way I see it, the Democrats want to spend more and raise taxes (or perhaps raise taxes and spend a little less), and the Republicans want to cut spending and not raise taxes. The two sides cannot agree and are at an impasse. So aren’t both sides equally to blame? Tell me what I’m missing here. Care to cite to the Democrats that want to increase spending while increasing taxes? Republicans aren’t playing chicken with the Democrats, they are playing chicken with a cliff. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/22 "2011-07-06T03:39:32Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > There’s a reason why sensible people don’t negotiate with terrorists. Which raises the question: Why the hell is Obama negotiating with these terrorists?😕 It certainly seems like this is headed towards a deal _massively_ weighted in the Republicans favor, just because they’re the only ones who apparently don’t give a damn if they sink the economy to get what they want. And as you rightly mention, they can play this card again and again. So what gives? Do the Democrats have some kind of actual strategy here? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/23 "2011-07-06T03:49:01Z")
They know Obama can not let the economy sink farther. The Repubs think if they let it go to hell, Obama will get the blame. There are a few idiots on this board who can not understand who created the financial mess. The Repubs figure if they hold back a recovery, they can steal the presidency. There are a lot of voters who will just throw the Dems out and reinstate the thieves who stole our country blind. It would be stupid, but it is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/24 "2011-07-06T03:56:33Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > There are a few idiots on this board who can not understand who created the financial mess. Or \*a fortiori \* **when** it started. (I’ll give them a hint: not last year) ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/25 "2011-07-06T04:18:01Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > So what gives? Do the Democrats have some kind of actual strategy here? I think they’re planning on caving, and hoping they get credit for being bipartisan. Just because that’s never worked out for them before doesn’t mean it won’t this time. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/26 "2011-07-06T15:08:27Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Couldn’t you just as easily ask how long Democrats are going to play chicken with the economy? It takes two to play chicken. > > The way I see it, the Democrats want to spend more and raise taxes (or perhaps raise taxes and spend a little less), and the Republicans want to cut spending and not raise taxes. The two sides cannot agree and are at an impasse. So aren’t both sides equally to blame? Tell me what I’m missing here. Nothing. Except that given our current financial position, cutting spending and not raising taxes is really the only way to go. It’s the irresponsible spending policies that got us where we are, and the vast majority of those are liberal social engineering programs. So saying that Republicans are playing chicken is somewhat…disingenuous, shall we say? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/27 "2011-07-06T15:40:23Z")
NO. Cutting spending and not raising taxes is exactly the wrong way to go. Not disingenuous at all. You can not fix the deficit by just cutting. We have been doing that over and over. Revenue is required. Lots of revenue. The deficit is equal to the tax cuts plus the unfunded wars. Those are the policies that put us in the hole. They have to be reversed just to start off. Then tax loopholes for individuals and businesses have to be ended. We need to close the offshore banking loopholes. We have a lot to catch up with since Bush believed in the stupid trickle down. It actually trickles up. Making the rich vastly richer and creating the huge wealth gap that is harming America so badly now. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/28 "2011-07-06T15:42:21Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Nothing. Except that given our current financial position, cutting spending and not raising taxes is really the only way to go. It’s the irresponsible spending policies that got us where we are, and the vast majority of those are liberal social engineering programs. > > So saying that Republicans are playing chicken is somewhat…disingenuous, shall we say? What is disingenuous is the idea that balancing the budget has anything to do with the debt ceiling. They are separate issues. The debt ceiling needs to be raised to prevent a default by the US. Without any new action, the default will happen completely because of the net effect of the revenue and spending bills passed in the past. It is just beyond my understanding how any member of congress could have voted for the FY2011 budget bills and now not be willing to vote to increase the debt ceiling to cover what they voted for a few months ago. The idea that cutting spending and not raising taxes is really the only way to go is an opinion. Anyone could easily find reputable economist that support it as well as those who say that there is no way to cut spending enough and revenue has to be increased. That last part generally has some idea that things like disbanding the military, etc. aren’t viable options. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/29 "2011-07-06T15:46:27Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > As I understand, the Democrats would be fine with just raising the debt limit, no strings attached. The Republicans are saying “No way unless you make massive spending cuts”. They’re the only ones “playing chicken” here. Actually, it’s just that they’re demanding **more**. It really doesn’t matter what it is, they just want more. Which, really, is the definition of being a Republican nowadays. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/30 "2011-07-06T16:01:02Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Nothing. And when is it, in fact, permissible to raise taxes? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/31 "2011-07-06T16:09:56Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > And when is it, in fact, permissible to raise taxes? > > -Joe When a Republican says it is, silly. ---
**Author:** ![Prelude\_to\_Fascination](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Prelude\_to\_Fascination](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prelude_to_Fascination)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/32 "2011-07-06T16:10:52Z")
> [@JimH52](#): > > [snip] If we don’t meet the debt, which was created by both Democratic and Republicans over the years, our rating will fall, As a result, all interest rates will rise. The economy goes back into the tank…and the GOP takes back the WH in 2012. I expect that is their plan. While I agree with you, and agree that’s their plan, it can’t possibly work (in my mind, but that doesn’t mean squat when it comes to millions of other people, as they don’t necessarily agree with me). It seems to me that while the repubs logic in causing the economy to tank, and therefore winning the WH in 2012 is “Look! It happened on Obama’s watch! It’s his fault! Burn him! He’s a witch!” In my opinion, it’s the republican’s fault, because at some point, we have to raise taxes. It’s simply inevitable to have more money coming in. Sure, cut spending, but let the bush tax cuts expire, end oil company subsidies, cut defense spending (by bringing troops home from Afghanistan), and raise tax rates reasonably. Again, IMO, boehner, cantor, et al have not acted in any sort of reasonable manner. ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/33 "2011-07-06T16:11:01Z")
> [@](#): > > You can not fix the deficit by just cutting. We have been doing that over and over. We have? When I cut my own personal budget I must have something vastly different going on that when our government claims to cut a budget. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/34 "2011-07-06T16:17:09Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You can not fix the deficit by just cutting. Of course we can - don’t be ridiculous. > [@](#): > > We have been doing that over and over. Let’s see a cite where we have cut spending overall. > [@](#): > > The deficit is equal to the tax cuts plus the unfunded wars. No it isn’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/35 "2011-07-06T16:54:06Z")
You can balance the budget by cutting spending. The question is what do we want the government to do. Every program is important to someone. If we cut all discretionary spending we would eliminate the deficit. We wouldn’t have a defense department, transportation department, justice department, state department, etc. A balance approach is needed and that means raising revenue and cutting spending. Raising revenue is some combination of tax rates, tax breaks and overall economic growth. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/36 "2011-07-06T17:24:04Z")
Republicans have President Obama where they want him. In November 2012 Obama and the Democrat Party will be evaluated by the unemployment rate and the deficit. Republicans are threatening to shut down the government unless Obama agrees to policies that are likely to increase both. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/37 "2011-07-06T17:42:19Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > When a Republican says it is, silly. But it’s not. Not even then. So, when is it OK? When the rate is 10% and needs to go to 12% to pay for a war? To stop an asteroid from hitting the Earth? If it’s down to 1% is it functionally equivalent to child murder if someone DOUBLES THE TAX RATE? To keep the world economy (note to Teabaggers, the USA is in fact part of the world, like it or not) from a meltdown? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/38 "2011-07-06T19:14:44Z")
[Ah, screw it, new thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=615272) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/39 "2011-07-07T03:57:30Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I thought I could support default if in fact the deal were total default. If the government were going to just tell the bondholders to shove off. If we were to tell the banks to stuff it, & tell them that we are sovereign and no one dictates terms to us. > > But the truth is, any government that had the stones to do that both could raise taxes already and would be smarter to do so. > > There’s no way that defaulting is a good idea. And raising our interest rates is not helpful either. > > Our debt, not our annual deficit, our debt, is ~69% of GDP. We could raise taxes by ~15% of GDP and pay the whole thing off in ~5 years. Easy. But the ruling class would rather keep the bonds-not-taxes racket going all the way to full Ponzi. > > I don’t think I will see the debt tackled in my lifetime. increasing the tax revenue by 15% of gdp would require doubling everyone’s tax burden, rich and poor alike. > **[List of sovereign states by tax revenue to GDP ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP)** > > This article lists countries alphabetically, with total tax revenue as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP) for the listed countries. The tax percentage for each country listed in the source has been added to the chart. > According to World Bank, "GDP at purchaser's prices is the sum of gross value added by all resident producers in the economy plus any product taxes and minus any subsidies not included in the value of the products. It is calculated without making deductions for depreci... We are presently taxed about 10% of GDP below the rest of the OECD nations (we are at about 24% (for state, local and federal combined)) while the OECD nations average about 35%. [http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=205](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=205) The recession itself accounts for about a 4% reduction in tax revenue (the Bush tax cuts by comparison reduced our tax revenue by 2% of GDP). Tack on increased expenditures for stimulus, the wars in the middle east and extra social safety net payments (food stamps etc.). We achieve a balanced budget if we can pull out of the recession in the next few years, reverse the Bush tax cuts and stop spending $100 billion a year to bomb a country with a GDP of $15 billion/year. We can solve social security by removing the cap. PERIOD. Heck we can reduce the employer side contribution if we entirely removed the cap and if we included stuff like carried interest income, deferred compensation, stock options and others income that is clearly compensation but manages to somehow escape the definition of wages, we could probably maintain the lower FICA rate we enjoy right now. Of course we still have the long term problems associated with health care costs but once we fix that, we are pretty much set. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873/40 "2011-07-07T03:58:47Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > There are no such things as a “tax loopholes”. Those are simply provisions of the code, most likely features rather than bugs. Are you under the impression that there are no unintended consequences in the tax code? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-long-will-republicans-play-chicken-with-the-economy/586873.md?page=3)