How long would it take to die from strangulation?

Factual Questions
21

[QUOTE=Sampiro]
After the Nuremberg trials some of the condemned prisoners were deliberately dropped in such a way that their necks didn’t snap but they died of strangulation. (Hermann Göring committed suicide largely because he suspected this would be the case and knew that as the “star” of the proceedings his own death would be the worse.)

Alfred Jodl, the Wehrmacht Chief of Staff, is recorded as having lived for 18 minutes, and Field Marshall Wilhelm Keitel (a 64 year old heavy smoker) was still alive after 20 minutes (he was cut down at 24 when doctors no longer found a pulse).
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Do you have a cite? Not challenging you at all – just curious why the executioners would have done this (putting aside the issues raised by inhumanely executing someone for crimes against humanity . . . ).

22

[QUOTE=Frylock]
Oh.

That’s cheating!

-FrL-
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This surprises you from David Blaine?

23

[QUOTE=Huerta88]
Do you have a cite? Not challenging you at all – just curious why the executioners would have done this (putting aside the issues raised by inhumanely executing someone for crimes against humanity . . . ).
[/QUOTE]
Sampiro’s wording seems to imply that this was something done underhandedly by the executioner, out of personal feeling or something. And that the prisoners knew of this plan ahead of time. That’s not clear.

Generally, condemned prisoners in each of the 4 zones were executed using the standard method of the occupying power. In the French zone, that was the guillotine or firing squad, American & British zones, the long-drop hanging, and Soviet zone the short-drop hanging.

The Nuremberg Judges had some discussion about this, with the French proposing the firing squad (at least for the military prisoners), but both the Americans & Soviets objected that the prisoners had forfeited their right to a ‘proper’ military execution by their crimes. So after discussion the Judges agreed to hanging, but without clearly specifying long-drop or short-drop.

The hangings were done by an American, so it might be presumed that he would use the american long-drop method. But eyewitness accounts in the press clearly indicated that this did not happen, the drops were too short to break their necks.

This may have been intentional, thinking that this was what the Judges had ordered. Or it may simply have been a mistake by the executioner, in mis-calculating the length of the rope. (If so, it wasn’t the only one. The gallows trap doors were also mis-sized, being too small – several of the prisoners hit the sides of the trapdoor when falling through, resulting in bloody wounds on them.)

(We can’t ask the executioner about this, as he was killed a few years later, accidentally electrocuting himself while preparing an electric chair for an execution.)

24

Some old television show that I barely recall said that, when a person is being suffocated (that is, deprived of oxygen, say by a plastic sheet over the mouth and nose), it’ll take two minutes for unconsciousness, and ten minutes for death. But, as said above, that’d take forever on the screen, so they tighten it up quite a bit.

25

[QUOTE=tim314]
This terminology isn’t universal among martial arts. For instance, in Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu there’s a technique called a rear naked choke which (as typically applied) actually cuts off the blood rather than the air.
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Probably no terminology is universal in martial arts; trying to get martial artists to agree on anything at all is like herding cats. :smiley: Some use “strangle” and “choke” to differentiate between blood and air techniques, some use “blood choke” and “air choke,” the rear naked choke being an example of the former. The Portugese name for the rear naked choke is rather charming: mata leão, “lion killer.”

26

[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net]
Sampiro’s wording seems to imply that this was something done underhandedly by the executioner, out of personal feeling or something. And that the prisoners knew of this plan ahead of time. That’s not clear.
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I didn’t mean to imply that it was definitely intentional, which is not known, though it certainly could have been (and imo was- all manner of lit was around in 1946 on how to build gallows and how to hang as it was still the manner of execution in some U.S. states). Can’t cite at the moment as I’m away from my books, but in a couple of the bios I’ve read of Göring it’s mentioned that the executioner posed with a special rope he’d planned on using for “Fat Hermann” (though he was no longer that fat), and Göring had stated repeatedly that he was perfectly willing to die by firing squad but would not die by hanging, so it’s fair assumption he had reason to believe it was a short drop. (Also, his doctor is said to have told him something to the effect of “expect a short night tonight” [meaning ‘the executions are tonight’, but possibly the short was relevant]).

In any case, pardon the hijack; the point is that Keitel and Jodl were both still alive for quite a few minutes even after losing consciousness, thus strangulation can take quite a while if not done with a lot of force. The garroting scenes in The Godfather is probably only accurate if you count the body going still as either when they lost consciousness or perhaps when their spinal chord snapped.

27

[QUOTE=tim314]
People get choked into unconsciousness in submission grappling or mixed martial arts competitions (Ultimate Fighting Championship, etc.). Usually they’ll tap out if they know they’re caught, but people getting choked unconscious doesn’t seem particularly rare. (Of course the fight is stopped as soon as the ref sees they’re out.) I’ve never heard of anyone being killed or permanently injured by a choke hold in such a competition, so I’m guessing it’s fairly hard to cause permanent damage choking someone with your bare hands.

Then again, it’s possible that there are more dangerous choke holds that are banned from these events. And as far as I know, strikes to the throat are almost always banned.
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I’m thinking of the situation in which a much more powerful person “throttles” a weaker person. Most forms of martial arts and fighting competitions have weight classes and are between people of the same gender. I was thinking of the situation where a 200 lbs. male is throttling a 100 lbs. female’s throat–I think that could permanent and mortal damage pretty quickly. It’s a much different situation when you’re in a controlled environment, against someone who is roughly the same strength as you (as you can at least fight the pressure on your neck to a meaningful degree.)

28

I don’t think “strangulation” should necessarily mean the cutting off of blood flow or the cutting off of air flow, it is instead a deliberate compression of the neck–which can cause the cutting off of either and massive physical trauma in addition.

29

[QUOTE=Sampiro]
these were men who were being choked by nooses with their own body weight acting as force against them (i.e. more forceful strangulation than most humans could deliver to another).
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Is that true? What I’m asking is if the psi for a noose and gravity is more or less than the psi generated by a human grip?

30

[QUOTE=Autolycus]
Is that true? What I’m asking is if the psi for a noose and gravity is more or less than the psi generated by a human grip?
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I won’t betray my ignorance of physics (other than to mention it here) by claiming that’s a definite fact. :stuck_out_tongue: Perhaps someone else will.

31

[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
I’m thinking of the situation in which a much more powerful person “throttles” a weaker person. Most forms of martial arts and fighting competitions have weight classes and are between people of the same gender. I was thinking of the situation where a 200 lbs. male is throttling a 100 lbs. female’s throat–I think that could permanent and mortal damage pretty quickly. It’s a much different situation when you’re in a controlled environment, against someone who is roughly the same strength as you (as you can at least fight the pressure on your neck to a meaningful degree.)
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Well, I’ve been on the opposite side of this kind of mismatch a number of times, where my opponent was significantly larger than I.

One of my most commonly employed techniques in judo randori and in tournaments was the cross-choke from the guard. This is a circulation strangle, not an air choke, but I never noticed any difference in how long they could hold out once properly applied that was dependent on size - I once choked out a guy who outweighed me by over a hundred pounds in less than ten seconds.

My understanding is that blood chokes like this work because you are putting pressure on the carotid sinus. Blood can no longer flow thru and the brain interprets this a a rise in blood pressure. This triggers a large drop in blood pressure (assisted, I believe, by pressure on the vagus nerve). You aren’t really shutting off blood to the brain - circulation continues thru the vertebral arteries - but you can put a person out almost painlessly in a matter of seconds - much faster than with an airway choke.

I imagine you would have to maintain this pressure for seven minutes or more to actually cause death. This is rather longer than I would care to spend, if I wanted to kill someone. I would probably first apply a circulation choke, cause them to pass out, then release the choke and crush the trachea with a strike or something.

Strangulation that works by shutting off the air flow thru the trachea is much slower - a determined or drugged up assailant can last a minute or more before passing out. Most submissions from hadaka-jime are produced because of the pain of the forearm compressing the throat, which is quite painful, and the feeling of suffocation produced by not being able to breathe is one of the few things people are born with. Of course, it is possible with some chokes to both compress the trachea and the carotids as well, producing both effects.

Airway chokes, especially caused by thumb pressure on the front of the throat (a rather inefficient method used by untrained assailants) sometimes fractures the hyoid bone. About a third of the time, in fact. So if the bone is broken, this is evidence of strangulation, but an intact hyoid does not rule out strangulation.

But, as you mention, other mechanical damage to the throat can produce death even if the pressure is not maintained.

Regards,
Shodan

32

I’ve read a few eyewitness accounts fo the execution of the Lincoln assassination conspirators and several of them (including Lewis Payne and Mary Surrat) were alive for quite a few minutes after hitting the end of the rope. Evidently their necks were not broken and they strangled to death instead.

33

Back in high school, a group of us were talking about pro wrestling, and I decided to explain how a sleeper hold wasn’t the same as a choke. The volunteer I was using to show the difference didn’t mind the choke (I didn’t put any pressure on), but we were all surprised at how little pressure the sleeper took, and how fast he passed out. No damage done, but it scared the hell out of us!

34

There was a brew haha here in LA many years ago when suspects that were being subdued with a police approved choke hold kept dying.
This lead to the banning of the use of such holds by the LAPD.
I suspect that death can occur rather quickly if the right conditions are met.

35

[QUOTE=Jpal]
I think I remember Richard Kuklinski saying that it took him “a couple minutes”, or “a few minutes” on one of those A&E specials. I’m also pretty sure he described the act as putting a rope around the victims neck, and then slinging them over his shoulder to essentially hang them.

I would imagine your average person wouldn’t have much luck in doing that though(Kuklinski was 6’5, 300lbs.).
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Kuklinski was a pathological liar.

36

[QUOTE=plnnr]
I’ve read a few eyewitness accounts fo the execution of the Lincoln assassination conspirators and several of them (including Lewis Payne and Mary Surrat) were alive for quite a few minutes after hitting the end of the rope. Evidently their necks were not broken and they strangled to death instead.
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In one account I read, the executioner felt guilt for the rest of his life over Mary Surratt. He, like many others (including the judges who had sentenced her and then appealed for clemency) was so convinced that her sentence would be commuted that he took the least time in tying her rope, thinking it wouldn’t be needed anyway. Had he known she was to hang, he would have tied it in such a way as to give her a fast death.